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I think even javelin has made some improvements since then. And some mistakes, like adding the skyhook.
Statements like this make your ignorance about gear safety pretty clear. The skyhook makes a substantial difference in reserve deployment time given the right conditions. While it isn't expected to work all the time, if my choice is between dieing because some asshole ran into me and I had to cut away at 1000 feet or having an open reserve that I can land, I think the choice is pretty clear.
The fact of the matter is that most of the rigs on the market are "good enough" to get by. We could go around the table poking at rig design all day. Here is an example: Any rig with a pop top (javelin, wings, racer, etc...) has a significantly greater chance of having a line, be it one of your own or someone else in an entanglement situation, snag on the reserve pilot chute. Talk about a situation I don't want anything to do with. None the less, hundreds, maybe more, of these rigs are sold every year and people are not dieing left and right because of it.
No rig is "perfect" and even if there was a perfect rig, I'm sure some people would find a way to slam against that one too. Most likely cause it didn't look cool enough. (Who really cares about safety anyways?
) Most of it comes down to opinion, how much value you place in someone's opinion is up to you. I know where I stand.~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Other manufacturers are licensing the skyhook because of Dan. It sells rigs.
My problem is I want someone to tell me where a skyhook will save you where a much less expensive and less complicated standard rsl will not.
Bill Booth, by his own admission, thinks improving safety features only let's jumpers take more risks to keep the fatality rate the same.
How many jumpers will cutaway low because they have a magical skyhook.
It's a gimmick to sell rigs. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but what problem does it solve except for sagging sales of an outdated rig?
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
My problem is I want someone to tell me where a skyhook will save you where a much less expensive and less complicated standard rsl will not.
Bill Booth, by his own admission, thinks improving safety features only let's jumpers take more risks to keep the fatality rate the same.
How many jumpers will cutaway low because they have a magical skyhook.
It's a gimmick to sell rigs. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but what problem does it solve except for sagging sales of an outdated rig?
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
Slurp56 0
QuoteCan you explain why several manufacturers are all licensing it and working to get it approved in their rigs, or why yet more manufacturers are working on their own MARD designs?
I can sum that up in 1 word: Marketing
I've nothing against UPT, Bill, the Sky hook, or any of it. Bill knows he has a marketing advantage with the skyhook and he leverages it. Bill is somewhat of a celebrity among the skydiving community and people listen to him and head his advice whether they fully understand it or not. The majority of people see themselves as "less-smart" than Bill Booth and buy or do what he recommends.
With that said, the majority of people are also the majority of the customer base in the small skydiving industry. Other companies are somewhat muscled into following suit to remain competitive. This is why *some* companies have elected to license the skyhook. Right or wrong, sometimes you have to give the customer what they want.
If Bill booth says that magnetic riser covers prevent you from breaking femurs or death, right or wrong the tendency is to believe him, and desire that "feature".
The idea of a MARD and the idea of Magnets are good, just dont think the skyhook will save your ass in a tight situation. It might or it might not. Focusing on what you are doing, to avoid that tight situation is a MUCH better alternative.
Warning! This is my personal opinion: Thinking that the skyhook will save your ass from a low altitude canopy collision is rediculous! If that is your argument to buy a skyhook, you're grasping at straws.
________________________________________
I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw.
I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw.
KellyF 16
QuoteQuoteJust make sure you have a hook kinfe on your rig at all times (standard on all Infinity's, not sure about others) [/shamelssplug]
The video posted in the link earlier shows that if the jumper had a hook knife, they could have cut the snagged line, then released the main cleanly and gotten a good reserve out. There's nothing like having the right tool for the job when you need it.
Any chance you're going to put in magnetic riser covers any time soon?
Nope
Magnets are "neato" and everything, but I believe the best reason to use them is that we wouldn't have to replace the occasional broken tuck tab (for free
My ignorance? Have you packed one? Javelin had a pretty simple clean reserve tray before. Now there are 2 stiff flaps harpooning the freebag in the tray if you deploy in a slightly head up position. Or if you don't have a skyhook, just put it under the freebag. Ridiculous.
And what substantial difference are you refering too? 100 feet? Maybe 200? So your choice between dying and living isn't dependant on whether that person wrapped their canopy around you, cause no skyhook is gonna save you there.
None of my points are "cool" or "fasionable". It's funny people are reading things that arent there. Where is my "cool" factor.
If you like the vector, get it. But buying a complete system for a skyhook that no one has been able to tell me the benefiet of yet, is silly. Marketing. Call it what it is.
You can get a regular rsl on any rig on the market. Where is the pages and pages of incidents of regular rsl fatalities that everyone would clamor for a skyhook?
Ohh, but my ignorance is showing.
Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome
bliston 0
I hate contributing to a thread that has gone so far off it's original topic, but feel compelled to respond.
The skyhook will save you if you have to cutaway low. It is also more likely (because your reserve will open higher) that you'll be able to make it back to the main landing to land a canopy that you're are less familiar with. You'll also likely be able to pick and get to a more suitable out, and maybe be able to land into the wind, than if you were under a reserve at a much lower altitude.
The Skyhook not only gets a quick reserve - it gets TIME - which can be invaluable. You might not need it if the spot is great and you are quick to recognize the issue and apply the appropriate response. I've been doing this for a little while I have lost two friends in accidents that involved partially inflated reserves - they both had thousands of jumps and were current, capable skydivers. Both would likely be alive if they had Skyhook equipped rigs.
The Skyhook also (in almost all cases) gives you a much cleaner reserve deployment than a standard RSL. I have jumped the Skyhook on an intentional cutaway jump and also had two live cutaways on a small highly loaded elliptical. For one of these I was on my back under a fast spinning mal and had a perfectly symmetrical and on-heading reserve deployment. I watched one of my teammates have a cutway on a skyhook equiped rig last month after an 8-way training jump and he was higher than me AFTER his reserve was open (he's a better tracker than I am). I'm continually impressed with the speed of the Skyhook.
Obviously you are very set in your opinion and I don't expect this post to sway you in the slighted way. I just hope others (particularly new jumpers aren't influenced by your disdain for what I believe to be a (as a jumper and as a rigger) as a great safety option. One that should be learned about, and considered before investing in, but none--the-less a great option. Of course nobody will need it if everything goes as planned, or even if you have a mal and handle it efficiently. Sometimes things just don't go that smoothly...
The other things I like about Vectors, since you brought it up before is the upward closing main flap (I see more bottom closing ones come open on exit and in freefall), the new design that eliminates binding tape on the inside - makes is really comfortable, the super construction strong webbing used throughout the harness, the new recoiling spectra reserve ripcord, and the magnetic riser covers. They open more evenly with less resistance, are very secure, and are thin enough (the magnets are about 1/8 of inch thick) that they really don't increase bulk - what difference does a little in that part of the rig anyway. I have had riser cover hang ups in the past and appreciate that I won't have them ever again.
I have owned Javelins, Wings, Racers, and Vectors, and like the comfort and performance of my Vector the best. Rigs are great these days - and almost all manufactures make good products, Infinity rigs are great, too (they have some awesome innovations, are super well built and designed, and I love their integrated housings on their main risers). Infinity would probably be my second choice for a rig, but when I weigh out all the options and features, Vector3s come out on the top of my list, but to each his own.
I agree with other folks that if you pack your main cleanly that the possibility of a line/flap entanglement in very very minimal. I'm paranoid about a lot of things, but that certainly isn't one of them.
Ben
The skyhook will save you if you have to cutaway low. It is also more likely (because your reserve will open higher) that you'll be able to make it back to the main landing to land a canopy that you're are less familiar with. You'll also likely be able to pick and get to a more suitable out, and maybe be able to land into the wind, than if you were under a reserve at a much lower altitude.
The Skyhook not only gets a quick reserve - it gets TIME - which can be invaluable. You might not need it if the spot is great and you are quick to recognize the issue and apply the appropriate response. I've been doing this for a little while I have lost two friends in accidents that involved partially inflated reserves - they both had thousands of jumps and were current, capable skydivers. Both would likely be alive if they had Skyhook equipped rigs.
The Skyhook also (in almost all cases) gives you a much cleaner reserve deployment than a standard RSL. I have jumped the Skyhook on an intentional cutaway jump and also had two live cutaways on a small highly loaded elliptical. For one of these I was on my back under a fast spinning mal and had a perfectly symmetrical and on-heading reserve deployment. I watched one of my teammates have a cutway on a skyhook equiped rig last month after an 8-way training jump and he was higher than me AFTER his reserve was open (he's a better tracker than I am). I'm continually impressed with the speed of the Skyhook.
Obviously you are very set in your opinion and I don't expect this post to sway you in the slighted way. I just hope others (particularly new jumpers aren't influenced by your disdain for what I believe to be a (as a jumper and as a rigger) as a great safety option. One that should be learned about, and considered before investing in, but none--the-less a great option. Of course nobody will need it if everything goes as planned, or even if you have a mal and handle it efficiently. Sometimes things just don't go that smoothly...
The other things I like about Vectors, since you brought it up before is the upward closing main flap (I see more bottom closing ones come open on exit and in freefall), the new design that eliminates binding tape on the inside - makes is really comfortable, the super construction strong webbing used throughout the harness, the new recoiling spectra reserve ripcord, and the magnetic riser covers. They open more evenly with less resistance, are very secure, and are thin enough (the magnets are about 1/8 of inch thick) that they really don't increase bulk - what difference does a little in that part of the rig anyway. I have had riser cover hang ups in the past and appreciate that I won't have them ever again.
I have owned Javelins, Wings, Racers, and Vectors, and like the comfort and performance of my Vector the best. Rigs are great these days - and almost all manufactures make good products, Infinity rigs are great, too (they have some awesome innovations, are super well built and designed, and I love their integrated housings on their main risers). Infinity would probably be my second choice for a rig, but when I weigh out all the options and features, Vector3s come out on the top of my list, but to each his own.
I agree with other folks that if you pack your main cleanly that the possibility of a line/flap entanglement in very very minimal. I'm paranoid about a lot of things, but that certainly isn't one of them.
Ben
Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website
sticks!
sticks!
beowulf 1
I have personally seen it save one person who cutaway extremely low. Would the story have been different with a regular rsl? I don't know but it would have been a lot closer.
erdnarob 1
Agreed 100% with you. The apparent crown top of a pilot chute is really a potential hazard for a line snagging. Lines now can be very thin and with summer humidity decreasing the pack volume, many times you can see pilot chute tops protruding on that kind of rigs and by looking sideway you can see the material of the pilot chute as well (sometimes coming out).
When analyzing a problem you have also to take in account how many rigs of a particular type are on the market. I mean a rig which is not that popular is likely to have less problem than a popular one.
When analyzing a problem you have also to take in account how many rigs of a particular type are on the market. I mean a rig which is not that popular is likely to have less problem than a popular one.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.
Reginald 0
QuoteMy problem is I want someone to tell me where a skyhook will save you where a much less expensive and less complicated standard rsl will not.
Okay here you go: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2718515;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
"To my great sadness, we had a canopy collision happen yesterday here at Skydive Temple. There was an 11-way RW formation, jumpers tracked off, and 2 experienced jumpers (1000-2000 jumps) had a canopy collision during opening. Their Neptunes/Altitracks showed that they opened between 2000 and 2500 feet. They hit body to body and their canopies entangled. Both cut away at a low altitude. One jumper was jumping a Vector rig with a Skyhook. The Skyhook did its job amazingly well. The other jumper was jumping a Javelin with the RSL hooked up, but the reserve didn't have time to open. "
Just to make it clear, the guy with the skyhook lived, the guy with a standard RSL died.
Any more questions?
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP
billvon 2,379
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>what a bout the idiot that flies into you at 1000ft?
In that case, both an RSL and a Skyhook will help.
>a regular RSL will take alot more than a 100 feet more than a
>skyhook deployment.
In some cases. In others there will be little difference.
It's like anything else. It's a good idea, and may save people's lives. But if people are buying Skyhooks because they are "nothing like" RSL's, and they feel that the Skyhook will keep them alive if they cut away at 100 feet - they may be safer with a rig that does not have a Skyhook. That way they will not make bad decisions based on their trust in a system that cannot deliver what they ask of it.
In that case, both an RSL and a Skyhook will help.
>a regular RSL will take alot more than a 100 feet more than a
>skyhook deployment.
In some cases. In others there will be little difference.
It's like anything else. It's a good idea, and may save people's lives. But if people are buying Skyhooks because they are "nothing like" RSL's, and they feel that the Skyhook will keep them alive if they cut away at 100 feet - they may be safer with a rig that does not have a Skyhook. That way they will not make bad decisions based on their trust in a system that cannot deliver what they ask of it.
rhys 0
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I have 5000 jumps and jump a high performance canopy, i have a skyhook but would never use a standatd RSL.
Obviously you don't understand it much at all either, but we do have some "magic beans" to sell you.....
Could you explain that a bit more please?
i too would like to know what you are talking about.
i don't like standard RSL's for thier potentila to wrap you in the bridle in a violent malfunction, a skyhook will use the centrifical force to eject you from you main and put you under your reserve in a horizontal orientation if the force is enough.
Diablo pilot, please enlighten me to what it is that i do not know about? you one line statement is no good in a discussion such as this.
would you use a standard RSL on your highly loaded main?
I personally would not, but a skyhook is more than safe in this situation.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
Agreed. I jump a V3 with magnetic riser covers, and while they work well, I don't know that they add much, if anything, when compared with a well designed tuck tab. If I bought another V3, I'd still get them, but the availability of magnetic riser covers on one rig over another would not affect my buying decision.
Why are you so anti-skyhook? It's one thing to be pointing out features of the V3 that are done better in other rigs, but this statement seems to be suggesting that the skyhook itself is a bad idea, but you're yet to provide any arguments to support such a statement. Can you explain why several manufacturers are all licensing it and working to get it approved in their rigs, or why yet more manufacturers are working on their own MARD designs?
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