Should we be concerned for newbies?

[Amazon 7]

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Bingo-- you brought up exactly what I was going to post about. I got the low profile D-ring on my new wings last year, and it's great! Definitely takes care of the "snag hazard" everybody talks about as their excuse for getting soft pad handle.

For me... I would rather look uncool and be unbroken at the same time.

I switched back to a small d-ring from the pillow for my reserve after the realization that in the cold... I could not grip the pillow with my left hand.. I have had a couple jammed/dislocated knuckles.. and in the cold they do not like to bend real well. At least with the D-ring I can hook my thumb into the ring...

[Joellercoaster 6]

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Plus, I can't imagine pulling a soft reserve with an injured hand, if it should happen.

Funny how things go... I bashed my hand pretty well on exit on the weekend (tore skin even through gloves, and it's going a nice shade of black right now). Then opened with a couple of twists, As it rolled me over onto my back, my very first thing I thought was "uh-oh, can I pull my handles?"

Fortunately the twists were few in number and I had enough altitude to kick out, and I have a steel reserve handle (and a skyhook ). But I'm pretty sure that if I'd had a pillow handle, the answer would have been "no".

Food for thought, anyway.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[Grumpy 5]

The guy who owns Parachutes Australia (which builds Talons under licence down under), will not build you a rig with a soft reserve handle.
He's had a mal where the only way he could get his reserve out was by hooking a thumb through his D-handle. It's not that he doesn't want kids to be cool, he just knows he'd be dead if he didn't have a D handle so he doesn't want to put anyone else in that situation. (He does offer the low profile D-handle though)
It's nice to see a guy put his concern for his customers safety ahead of his desire to make his customers happy.

[Johnny_Cage12 0]

As one of the "newbies" who recently purchased a rig from Gary with dual pillow handles I thought it is only right to explain my train of thought.

I jump at a very safety oriented DZ (a little profile research will help determine where) and I talked to instructors, veterans, the owners, etc. before I bought my gear. That allowed me to receive very good information based on MY landings, skills, etc. that makes me feel very good about my purchase.

The rig I bought is equipped with an RSL. Now I know that doesn't mean I don't have to pull my reserve handle but it is an additional safety measure that I am glad to have. I didn't get a reserve pillow because it looks cool or matches, I got it because it is the same as the other side and I don't think "Ok grab the pillow first then the D ring then pull the pillow then pull the D ring." I think "Grab right, grab left, pull right, pull left." I do this multiple times on the ground, once before I get on the plane and always before I go out the door. It is so ingrained in my head that I don't relay on shapes the help me get out of a sticky situation. I want muscle memory to lead me to safety.

It may be personal preference or in time we may find that a d ring is a better option but if it is determined that d rings are better I will make the switch for both the cutaway and reserve. I trust my hand strength (rock climber) and feel like if the pillow is ok for the right side it is ok for the left. If it was ok for neither I would have asked for dual d rings.

With all that aside I feel very fortunate to be working with a dealer that cares about more than the bottom dollar.

Thanks Gary...you rock!

John

[billvon 2,379]

>and feel like if the pillow is ok for the right side it is ok for the left.

No argument with your reasoning, but I did want to point out that those two handles can't really be judged using the same criteria.

If your cutaway handle comes out at the wrong time, you will die with no opportunity to correct the situation.

If your cutaway handle does not come out when you want it to, you still have a reasonable chance at survival (as many people have demonstrated over the years.)

If your reserve handle comes out at the wrong time, you will likely find yourself under a canopy you don't want, but chances are you will survive the jump. Again, this has happened fairly often.

If your reserve handle does not come out when you need it to, your odds of survival are pretty low (if you assume your AAD won't save you.)

So the #1 job of the cutaway handle is to NOT come out at the wrong time - the #1 job of the reserve handle is to come out when you need it to. I don't think you can use the same criteria for both.

[humanflite 0]

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>and feel like if the pillow is ok for the right side it is ok for the left.

No argument with your reasoning, but I did want to point out that those two handles can't really be judged using the same criteria.

If your cutaway handle comes out at the wrong time, you will die with no opportunity to correct the situation.

If your cutaway handle does not come out when you want it to, you still have a reasonable chance at survival (as many people have demonstrated over the years.)

If your reserve handle comes out at the wrong time, you will likely find yourself under a canopy you don't want, but chances are you will survive the jump. Again, this has happened fairly often.

If your reserve handle does not come out when you need it to, your odds of survival are pretty low (if you assume your AAD won't save you.)

So the #1 job of the cutaway handle is to NOT come out at the wrong time - the #1 job of the reserve handle is to come out when you need it to. I don't think you can use the same criteria for both.

Very well said....

[Johnny_Cage12 0]

Billvon,

Those are all good points and they are certainly noted.

I was able to try on a rig with dual pillow handles and feel comfortable that if needed I would be able to grab and pull both pillow handles or I obviously wouldn't have chosen it for my rig. I know it is easier said than done because in the real deal there are things happening that you simply can't predict. That being said I have to trust myself to make the right moves when needed or I know I shouldn't be diving. I can only base those steps on the people that have taught me from day one (and now people on DZ too). I think this thread is great and will continue to look for more responses. If (or when) I have a cutaway on my new rig I will be able to shed more light as it seems most people on find their true preference once they have done the cutaway for real.

To sum it up... I don't want either handle coming undone when its not supposed to and I want to make sure that each handle can be pulled when needed. I think that dual pillows will be the best fit for me.

Also I hope that we don't find any correlation to incidents based on pillows vs d ring because that leads to people copying posts on this subject and using them as an "I told you so" which is sad. I have seen some instances (I think his name was Tim who downsized from a 210 to a 135 or something crazy like that) where it has happened and that benefits no one. This topic is entirely different than RAPID RAPID downsizing and will lead to good debate for a long time.

Blue skies all,

John

[muz 1]

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So the #1 job of the cutaway handle is to NOT come out at the wrong time - the #1 job of the reserve handle is to come out when you need it to. I don't think you can use the same criteria for both.

Excellent argument!

[LloydDobbler 2]

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Very well said....

I agree.

I feel like this whole discussion is somewhat akin to the 'Should someone with 25 jumps get a digital altimeter?' debate. My take on that one is that both sides make great points, but ultimately, it all depends on the jumper in question.

When I got my rig (at roughly 50 jumps), I bought a used rig with dual pillow handles. I felt somewhat comfortable in that it's a V3 Micron and the reserve pillow thus has a stiffener in it - it's much easier to grasp than the standard cutaway pillow.

Reason I chose to stick with soft handles? Safety. I knew I wanted to get into freeflying (amongst other things), and I could easily imagine someone pulling my reserve in the midst of a funky sit-train exit. I looked at the pros and cons, and chose the setup I felt offered the best insulation from 'issues' based on my type of flying.

Interestingly enough, lately I'm thinking of switching to a low-profile D-ring. This comes for a number of things I've learned/seen since my initial rig purchase:

- I've looked at them, and they seem like they're out-of-the-way *enough*.

My type of flying has changed. While I still freefly on occasion, I spend much more time flying wingsuits and 4-way FS lately.

- Speaking of wingsuits, I like the idea of being able to hook my thumb into the reserve handle should something go wrong. Part of my reasoning being...

- I witnessed a no-pull fatality where finding handles was an issue.

So I'm likely going to switch back on my next repack, and go with the low-profile D-ring.

But my main point is, I don't think there's a right answer for all jumpers. There seem to be advantages and drawbacks to both types, and a licensed jumper should be allowed to choose what's best for them. I'm incredibly glad we have dealers like Gary out there educating the newer jumpers to the arguments they may not have considered.

Signatures are the new black.

[erdnarob 1]

Soft reserve handles are just one facet of the irresistible trend to adopt FASHION before considering FUNCTION.

Here is a list of what I think is "FASHION FIRST and we will see the function later" attitude.
1) reserve soft handle for beginners
2) small rings release system for people weighting 180 lbs and more
3) full face helmets for people under 100 jumps or still in progression for the basics and who still need coaches in freefall or for people jumping above 14000 ft and get lens fogging or trouble with oxygen feeder.
4) Partially apparent pilot chute top plate asking the rigger to place the pilot chute material mainly on the bottom or on the top or inside the spring having that way the pilot chute material not evenly distributed (Racer is not in this category)
5) smoke glasses for skydiving instead of clear ones
6) low jump people doing freeflying while they haven't mastered the basics of the "belly" flying.
7) buying some rigs just for the look without considering (with a rigger) the quality of the design.
8) buying the wrong jump suit for the type of discipline you do (eg. some brands of jumpsuits are just not considering big jumpers)
and the list goes on....

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Auryn 0]

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I disagree about ease of use. I have 18 reserve rides - 1 of which was on a soft handle. That one took me longer to find it, was harder to feel, and took longer to pull (had to remember to peel off the velcro.)

That was reserve ride either 17 or 18 so it wasn't like I was a rookie at this. It disturbed me enough that I didn't jump the rig again until I had a hard handle installed.

My only chop was on a borrowed rig with double softs, at about 450 jumps. I've always owned and drilled on rigs with a metal reserve handle. Since I was taught "peel, pull, chop.. peel, pull, live" on the metal handle system, I didnt have any probs for the transition. As far as concerns about seeing the handles-in my mal I went 100 percent by feel and double checked it before execution.

[Baksteen 84]

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I trust my hand strength

But what if you break your left hand upon exit? Are you one-thousand percent sure you can pull the soft handle with your right hand?
Other than that, you seem to have thought this through. Well done!

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Baksteen 84]

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3) full face helmets for people under 100 jumps or still in progression for the basics and who still need coaches in freefall or for people jumping above 14000 ft and get lens fogging or trouble with oxygen feeder.

Crudely speaking, the US system allows people of 25 jumps each to jump together.

I think that a full face might actually be a good idea to prevent foot-in-mouth disease.
Of course, it's best to make some 'acclimatisation' jumps with the new type of helmet.. that means solo jumps.

Re: oxygen jumps, that's another case of know your gear - whether you'll have trouble with the full face depends on the oxygen system (I think). Check before boarding.
Or take off your helmet at 1k and put it back on when the oxygen is stored.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom