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mamajumps

Serious landing issues...

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I really need some help here. I have been jumping for 5 years (consistent 03 to 05, 2 years off for an injury, jumped 3 times in 07, and about 10 times this year so far). My problem is, I flare way to late, and knock on wood, I haven't hurt myself yet. I signed up for a canopy course with Lyle Presse, but my 2nd jump ended in a cutaway and as of yet I have not been able to finish the course. I love free fall with everything in me, but from the second my canopy is out, I am a nervous wreck. I can only afford to get to the DZ maybe once a month for 3-5 jumps. My problem is I flare way to late. Even when I am trying to talk myself thru it, the outcome is still the same. What aggrevates me the most is that I have landed my canopy 30% of my jumps, but now it seems as if I am in a rut and can't get out of it. Almost a panic state. I jump a Triathalon 150 (and have been told that is my problem by many, but I cant afford to do anything about that right now, the canopy is for sale.) On days with decent wind, I can land it, but even then it doesnt always work out that way. I have been told to upsize, I have been told not too, that ground speed will help me land. All of the advice I have been given, is from people that I would consider experienced skydivers. I love jumping more than the average person and have many goals set for myself as far as skydiving goes, but I'll be honest right now, its not so fun for me. Which breaks my heart. Please help...any advice would be appreciated.

edited to add... I am 140 out the door, so I am just under a 1:1 with it....

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If its that much of an issue, perhaps your DZ would be willing to do radio work under canopy.

Maybe get some video to see your landings. If you can see where the issues are a coach can help out.

Other then that, when you land, do you look straight down? Most people tend to flare too late because they look straight down. As you approach the ground, around 50ft or less, look out at approx a 45 - 60 degree angle. This helps you to get more of a perspective on where the ground actually is.
Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

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Have you tried adjusting your flare? Are you doing a 2 or 3 stage flare? If you're doing a 2 or 3 stage flare it might help to speed up the first stage to get you leveled out sooner.

Clearly I'm no expert but when I get on a new canopy, I find the level out point - where my flare, at what speed will level out the canopy from full flight.

The speed at which I do this first part of my flare has a big effect on my level out.

Again - noob here but this stuff works for me. Hopefully others will expand or tell me to STFU. ;)

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If its that much of an issue, perhaps your DZ would be willing to do radio work under canopy.

Maybe get some video to see your landings. If you can see where the issues are a coach can help out.

Other then that, when you land, do you look straight down? Most people tend to flare too late because they look straight down. As you approach the ground, around 50ft or less, look out at approx a 45 - 60 degree angle. This helps you to get more of a perspective on where the ground actually is.



Yes looking straight down is a lot of my problem, even when I am telling myself to look at the horizon, at the last second, I panic and look down. This has definitly become a learned negative behavior, I just need to figure out how to "unlearn" it. I have thought about doing the radio thing, but the fear of being laughed at has stopped me. I mean seriously, I should not be having these issues any longer. If I could only fly a canopy the way I fly my body, things would be great....[:/]

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Suggest you have an Instructor watch your landing to ascertain if your flare is too dainty and not aggressive enough or staged properly or both.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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Flare higher. Having someone on a radio to tell you when to flare for one or two jumps might be helpful. Do you really care what anybody else says if it helps?

It sounds to me like what you really need to work on are currency and confidence. A lack in either one can easily translate into less than stellar landings (not that that's ever happened to me... ;)).

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I'm not sure if any of your profile is right but some of it isn't. (3 plus pounds per square foot:S) But if you really have less than 100 jump your still learning. It's tough with your frequency of jumping. It's tough for me with 2600 jumps because right now I'm not jumping a lot (new family and new house).

Don't be afraid at being laughed at doing the radio thing. Whatever helps is good. If someone is laughing at you ignore it, they should be helping you.

Practice your flare at altitude and see if and where you canopy stalls. Then you will know what you can do and what will happen if you flare high. If it doesn't stall there will be less danger in flaring high. If it will stall, learn how far you can pull the toggles without stalling it. This is all to gain some confidence that you can work your stall up without hurting yourself. Be ready to PLF if you do flare too high.

How old is your Triathlon? There have been a couple of different brake line configurations. A number of years ago Aerodyne recommended changing older Tri's to the new configuration. As I understand it it improves the flare. I've had mine for a long time and have never gotten around to changing the configuration even though it's a simple change. I need to because some of my landing suck recently.>:( I THINK that if your triathlon has a steering line attached to the outside corner it is the old configuration. Someone chime in and confirm my memory.:S

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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I'm not sure if any of your profile is right but some of it isn't. (3 plus pounds per square foot:S) But if you really have less than 100 jump your still learning. It's tough with your frequency of jumping. It's tough for me with 2600 jumps because right now I'm not jumping a lot (new family and new house).

Don't be afraid at being laughed at doing the radio thing. Whatever helps is good. If someone is laughing at you ignore it, they should be helping you.

Practice your flare at altitude and see if and where you canopy stalls. Then you will know what you can do and what will happen if you flare high. If it doesn't stall there will be less danger in flaring high. If it will stall, learn how far you can pull the toggles without stalling it. This is all to gain some confidence that you can work your stall up without hurting yourself. Be ready to PLF if you do flare too high.

How old is your Triathlon? There have been a couple of different brake line configurations. A number of years ago Aerodyne recommended changing older Tri's to the new configuration. As I understand it it improves the flare. I've had mine for a long time and have never gotten around to changing the configuration even though it's a simple change. I need to because some of my landing suck recently.>:( I THINK that if your triathlon has a steering line attached to the outside corner it is the old configuration. Someone chime in and confirm my memory.:S



My profile is way off. I am 140 out the door, loading that canopy at a little under 1:1 My Tri is a 99 model with about 300 jumps. Thanks for your advice!

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Flare higher. Having someone on a radio to tell you when to flare for one or two jumps might be helpful. Do you really care what anybody else says if it helps?

It sounds to me like what you really need to work on are currency and confidence. A lack in either one can easily translate into less than stellar landings (not that that's ever happened to me... ;)).



Thanks a million for your advice, your one of the ones I have a ton of respect for that posts here! Confidence is a HUGE issue for me, not only in skydiving but in life in general. Problem is with each jump, it gets worse and worse. I had someone offer to take me on a tandem and let me fly that canopy, but something about not being able to save my own ass freaks me out....:P

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You are expecting more of yourself than is possible with your currency... imagine if you only rode a horse 10 times in the last year for about 4 minutes each time... how quickly do you think you'd progress as a rider? How fast do you think you'd be able to solve problems? Probably not very quickly...yet that's what you're expecting under canopy.

Have someone video your landings and have an instructor de-brief you on the landings with the video... that's the easiest way to learn what you're doing wrong. That, and jump more :)


Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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You are expecting more of yourself than is possible with your currency... imagine if you only rode a horse 10 times in the last year for about 4 minutes each time... how quickly do you think you'd progress as a rider? How fast do you think you'd be able to solve problems? Probably not very quickly...yet that's what you're expecting under canopy.

Have someone video your landings and have an instructor de-brief you on the landings with the video... that's the easiest way to learn what you're doing wrong. That, and jump more :)



That is a very good point...
I am perfectionist with no confidence... nice combination huh?:P

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Problem is with each jump, it gets worse and worse.



Yup. You're going over the "bad" things that have happened in your head, over and over... of course your landings aren't going to be good.

A couple things that helped me get my confidence back as I got more current -

Visualize. See yourself landing perfectly, flaring at just the right time and just the right speed, in your head thousands of times before your next jump. If you aren't sure what that looks like, watch video of other people doing it on canopies similar to yours. Watch a LOT of people land and pay close attention to their flare technique and what the canopy is doing.

Relax. Say it out loud as you wave off, as your canopy is opening, as you practice your flare up high, as you start your pattern, as you turn final, right before you flare.

And decide to be confident. Remind yourself often that you can do it. You've done it before, right? So you obviously have the skills. B|

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In addition to the other excellent advice given, please consider dedicating your next jumping day to canopy work. A lot of dropzones don't do hop-n-pops for licensed jumpers on weekends but you can do a solo with a high pull. Use the time to practice specific skills but above all, use it to unlearn your fear of canopy flight.

I've been through a similar situation where a few bad landings lead to growing fear which lead to worse landings which lead to greater fear, etc. I was able to work with a canopy coach who had me execute drills on slow flight, fast flight and accuracy. The fast flight drills (a series of hard spirals) helped snap my fear. I won't recommend specific exercises to you as I am not qualified. Focusing on canopy control for a few jumps and learning my canopy's flight characteristics helped me break the vicious cycle.

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Visualize. See yourself landing perfectly, flaring at just the right time and just the right speed, in your head thousands of times before your next jump. If you aren't sure what that looks like, watch video of other people doing it on canopies similar to yours. Watch a LOT of people land and pay close attention to their flare technique and what the canopy is doing.

Relax. Say it out loud as you wave off, as your canopy is opening, as you practice your flare up high, as you start your pattern, as you turn final, right before you flare.



Oh, such great advice. I had the problem of flaring too high for quite a while and this is pretty much the approach I used. I think I've finally got it now. On my jumps Sunday, I was finally flaring at the right height. :)
"safety first... and What the hell.....
safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy

POPS #10490

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I have thought about doing the radio thing, but the fear of being laughed at has stopped me. I mean seriously, I should not be having these issues any longer. If I could only fly a canopy the way I fly my body, things would be great....[:/]



My theory on that is that its better to have them laugh and fix the issue, then break a leg and then be laughed at.

Surprisingly few people will laugh at you trying to be safe.
Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

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I have thought about doing the radio thing, but the fear of being laughed at has stopped me. I mean seriously, I should not be having these issues any longer. If I could only fly a canopy the way I fly my body, things would be great....[:/]



My theory on that is that its better to have them laugh and fix the issue, then break a leg and then be laughed at.

Surprisingly few people will laugh at you trying to be safe.


you would be suprised, unfortunately, i have already experienced this more than my share... really helps to hurt one's confidence....[:/]

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Flaring at altitude...always above 3000 helped me a LOT when I couldn't flare properly. I mean FLARE too...until that canopy pulls you backwards. You've got to know where it flares at.
The other ideas here are also good helping points.
NOT looking down, get VIDEO review from a reputable instructor, start looking at the positives and commit yourself to success!
You CAN do this and you know you can.;)

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If people at your home dz are laughing at you for trying to learn something and be safer, you should get a new home dz. :S

If you love that dz and it is really your only option call around to other places and talk to some instructors. I'm sure somebody would be willing to help you. And nobody on dz would have to know.

Video is the best teacher. See if you can get your landings on video. Just don't let knowing that someone is watching add to your stress and freak you out more.

Be patient with the faults of others; they have to be patient with yours.

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Hmm, you low time jumpers just keep at it, sooner or later these things starts to dial in. Like what these folks said, jump currency is key.
If you were real unsafe on your landings then I imagine you would have been grounded by now. Remember that flaring a little high is better than not flaring in time, just remember to never let the toggles back up if you flare too early, and keep your feet and knees together if you are gonna smack, also ass landing are never a good idea.

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Are you flaring all the way? That's a big problem I see, especially with women. You have shorter arms, less upper body strength, and sometimes a touch of timidity. Add in a little bit of poor technique, and you'll see a lot of flares that aren't "all the way." Video taping and a good instructor will identify if this is a problem.

My question is this: When you flare, to you have your arms out in front of you or to the sides of you, but with your elbows stiff? If so, that is bad technique. If you want to get better flares, bend your elbows as you pull down the toggles, keeping your hands close to the front of your torso. As your hands go past your chest, you can stick your elbows out to the side and push with much more strength than if you "stiff arm" your flares. If you're not doing it this way, you should have been taught it about 70 landings ago.

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Are you flaring all the way? That's a big problem I see, especially with women.



Aye - I switched from the older lineset on a tri 220 to a new 210, but still sometimes have this problem of flaring late and not leveling out. I'm sure most of the time it's an incomplete flare - the tri doesn't let you get away without it the way a Pilot might (might even pop up with the same flare).

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you would be suprised, unfortunately, i have already experienced this more than my share... really helps to hurt one's confidence....



I don't know where you jump, so I don't know the people there (obviously), but I find that when people at my dropzone laugh at me for a stupid question, it's never mean-spirited laughter. It's just good-natured teasing. I took a packing class today, and my instructor laughed at me a lot, but he was still helpful, still answered all my questions, and I knew that he was just giving me a hard time, and wasn't at all trying to make me feel bad in any way. When I graduated from AFF, my FJC instructor told me soberly (but jokingly) that she had talked to my AFF 8 instructor and was pretty sure I hadn't passed. I just smiled and asked if what she was really telling me was that she didn't want any beer.

My point is that while I'm sure there are mean skydivers out there, in my very limited experience I've found that when most skydivers make fun of you, it's in fun, and I take it as a sign that I've been accepted (at least somewhat ;)).

Could that be what's happening at your DZ?

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Flare higher. Having someone on a radio to tell you when to flare for one or two jumps might be helpful. Do you really care what anybody else says if it helps?

It sounds to me like what you really need to work on are currency and confidence. A lack in either one can easily translate into less than stellar landings (not that that's ever happened to me... ;)).



Thanks a million for your advice, your one of the ones I have a ton of respect for that posts here! Confidence is a HUGE issue for me, not only in skydiving but in life in general. Problem is with each jump, it gets worse and worse. I had someone offer to take me on a tandem and let me fly that canopy, but something about not being able to save my own ass freaks me out....:P


Bytch is right. Who cares what people think, if you want to get with an Instructor and try a radio, do it. If money is an issue, try to do a day of hop and pops with someone reviewing your landings with you.

I POUNDED in for my first 100 jumps. I do alright now.......:P
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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