THE MIRAGE G4 PROBLEM

[surfbum5412 0]

[mjosparky 4]

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You are comparing apples-to-oranges, and anyone that knows about measuring rigs knows that it's ok to be off by a few centimeters. That difference would not cause a 6in. to 1ft. separation.

I mentioned before that these rigs were NOT self-measured.

Anyways, I have received a few PM's that have confirmed it's the geometry of the G4, and this has been confirmed by OTHER manufacturers.

And you know this because you hold a Senior Rigging Cert. in back, chest, seat and lap and rated as a Jumpmaster in AFF and Tandem. With kind of stuff in your profile it is hard to take you seriously.

If you think about how a harness fits, if it is tight fitting while in a seated position it would be real hard to stand upright while wearing it.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[surfbum5412 0]

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If you think about how a harness fits, if it is tight fitting while in a seated position it would be real hard to stand upright while wearing it.

It's not the fit, it's the geometry of the unisyn harness. Other articulated harnesses don't have a chest ring. In a sit position with the other rigs, the MLW may kink a little when the rig catches air and pulls on it, but the container will remain snug on the back. With the unisyn, that ring on the chest allows the harness to rotate backwards; the container lifts off the back.

Example in pic...

Jumper on left with Jav you can see MLW kink a little, but container stays snug. Jumper on right (with his new custom rig) you can see MLW doesn't kink, but container pulls harness with it.

[likestojump 3]

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If you think about how a harness fits, if it is tight fitting while in a seated position it would be real hard to stand upright while wearing it.

It's not the fit, it's the geometry of the unisyn harness. Other articulated harnesses don't have a chest ring. In a sit position with the other rigs, the MLW may kink a little when the rig catches air and pulls on it, the container will remain snug on the back. With the unisyn, that ring on the chest allows the harness to rotate backwards; the container lifts off the back.

Talon/VooDoo, Javelin, Reflex, Icon all have an option for chest rings. The only thing different is the d ring is placed facing down, as opposed on the Mirage the rings is placed facing away from each other.

pics attached

[likestojump 3]

I want to add, that the very apparent difference between the "full articulation" on the Mirage vs others is :

Javelin/Icon articulates the legstrap below the lateral junction. (in other words the lateral and MLW junction is sewn together, and the ring goes on the piece of the MLW, below the lateral junction, thus leaving the lateral fixed. (pic attached)
Reflex puts a round ring at the lateral/MLW/legstrap junction.
VooDoo puts a Drings facing IN on the laterals, thus articulating the MLW/lateral/legstrap.

Mirage puts a Dring facing down on the MLW, thus articulating the MLW/lateral/legstrap.

I got pictures if anyone wants to see them.

[surfbum5412 0]

great observation. what's the results of the different combos?

[likestojump 3]

No clue what the result is. I have jumped all of those containers, and did not have any issues. I do think that a round ring lower harness articulation like the one on Reflex/Wings is very nice. I also do think that chest articulation is not necessary, and is only mildly beneficial - but fashion dictates such option be available. It helps people with a large chest and small waist.

Bottom line - I am sure each combination has it's pros and cons, I just think that there are too many variables involved,

just for fun, here's another variant - an early Talon2, which has round ring articulation both on the chest and hips.

[RiggerLee 61]

The diffrence in tightness between the sitting and standing position does not have to be so extreame. It's a product of the geometry of the hip junction. If the pivit point is in line with the ball and socket of the hip their shouldn't be a big change in the tightness of the rig. This center of rotation is both lower and farther back then you think. The problem is if you build a harness like that it's not very comfertable. It implies a very short lateral at the side of the rig and the junction of the lateral and hip very low on the hip. The main lift web tends to pull back against the arms cutting off blood flow and you wind up hanging from a point on your side with the leg strap cutting into your groin, think old strong tandom harness.

Now in truth it doesn't have to be that bad. eliminate even one of those factors and most of the problem goes away.

Example, A racer with a latteral continues into the legstrap. Just about the most exstream example of anti stager short of actualy moving the latteral bellow the legstrap. Absolutly no lift. I remember a rig he built for Amy who insisted on stager. He built it with a band across her lower back from legstrap to leg strap and the lateral from the containor well above it. No falling out of that rig.

Or look at any older rig with really short latterals. Or any rig with a low point or rotation for the hip as lonng as the MLW is not too far forward. Javalin has gotten away with building a lot of rigs with an amazing amount of stagger by keeping there ring low and their latterals modderate.

The more you exagerate any of these qualities: stagger, long latterals, and high points of rotation the easier it will be to roll out the back of your rig. All three of them togather...

If you want this to make sence think of the most extream example of all three of these togather. Think of a line right down the spine. Think of another where the femor is. Remember that the junction, the center of rotation is actually fairly far back. Now think of the mlw running down the front of the body, in fact think of him being a big thick so you really exagerate how far forwards the mlw is from the point of rotation. Now put the legstrap junction almost on the front of the leg, even a bit low down with the lift web a bit too long. Now imagion the rig high on the back with a lot of stagger and the latteral running all the way around the side to almost the front of the body to a point of rotation in the mlw. when you stand you pull the mlw tight across your belly all the way up to the yoke across the back of your neck, like a bib. The only thing holding the base of the rig against your back is the latteral and all it has to pull on is the mlw held tight by you standing up. Now sit down. Every thing rotates from the hip way behind the mlw. Imagion the rotation of the leg feeding webbing into the main lift web from the front of the leg on a lever well in front of the hip and the center of rotation. The mlw on the front of your body becomes totaly lose. Now that there is nothing to pull the mlw tight there is nothing to keep the pack from pulling the latteral and bending the slack mlw at that junction and alowing the rig to lift off your back. Long stagger, long lat, front side mlw, high point of rotation forwards and above the hip, add it all up and fall right out the back.

It's hard to exsplane this typeing here but the more forwards the mlw is the more the mlw will losen and ride up when you lift your legs. Just that simple. Now as to what happens then depends on the stagger and flexability of the mlw above hip. If you had less stagger or some thing else pulling forward on the latteral ie a waist belt then the pack wont be able to rotate back so much. It will still lift vertically.

Now on the other hand the farther forward the main lift web is the more you settle into a "chair" after opening. No one likes the yoke pulling backwards on their shoulders cutting into thier arms. and you must have the tineyest little rig you can jump as short as they can make it regardless of how thick it is setting as high on your back as you can reach, or even higher I've seen totals because people couldn't reach their rig. But they did look good. I'll give them that. And you must have stagger, otherwise it's just not FREEFLY.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[pchapman 275]

Great post RiggerLee. Harness design isn't usually talked about much. Older rigs sure tended to have short laterals.

Likestojump showed pics of a few different rigs with different layouts for the hip rings vs. leg junction vs. lateral junction. A given manufacturer doesn't always do things just one way, do they? For example, the stagger and lateral & leg junctions could be different for a small rig and a long MLW, than for a long rig and short MLW. So looking at just one rig doesn't tell the whole story of how the manufacturer builds things.

[gbstuar 0]

When you put the rig on, rotate the hip junctions forward and then snug the leg straps. This usually takes care of any rig-separation issues, assuming the harness was made for the wearer (ie, custom).

[jsaxton 0]

cut in laterals help a lot

[Gene03 0]

Also known as adjustable horizontal back strap.

“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)

[stayhigh 2]

pretty much all container that i've seen sit flying position tend to do that..
just thank that your main flap aren't flaping up and down at the same time.
get used to it..

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[NewGuy2005 51]

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...sticking out a little on your back is common place in sit fly positions and with other rigs besides Mirage...

It doesn't have to be.
Two words: Adjustable laterals.

Or... How about these two words: Belly band.

Wouldn't one help this situation??

[78RATS 0]

If you see a freeflyer with a belly band please club him over the head. He has suffered enough.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[NewGuy2005 51]

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If you see a freeflyer with a belly band please club him over the head. He has suffered enough.

If you used it to also carry your handgun, it would then be cool!

[sky-pimp 0]

Yep my mirage when sitflying lifts of my back by quite a lot, the harness was built for me so it is the right size !
Not that i notice but it does make me wonder how much of an effect that gap causes with air obviously having a big area to push against ??
It may make me want to pick a different container manufacturer this time.

YeHaaaaaaaaaaa

[dorbie 0]

Claims that this is an MLW length/fit issue are a stretch. The MLW length would not have to vary much if at all to allow the hip ring and therefore the lateral to move back significantly.

It looks more like a hip articulation position issue where you position the leg straps.

Look at the hip ring, and imagine rotating the leg strap around the leg until the hip ring is further forward and towards the groin.

It seems to me the only way to guarantee positioning is a belly band to hold the hip rings or MLW forward.

I'd expect many rigs to show this issue unless you have uncomfortable tension on the MLW, which is going to vary depending on whether you stand sit arch crouch etc.

My 2c.

... so is this really MLW length or more to do with leg strap geometry and placement? Wouldn't tension on the MLW to prevent this be uncomfortable? Isn't a belly band the more reliable solution (with other benefits)?

[RiggerLee 61]

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If you see a freeflyer with a belly band please club him over the head. He has suffered enough.

Vibe asked us to build them belly bands for their rigs when they went to nationals a few years ago.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[surfbum5412 0]

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Yep my mirage when sitflying lifts of my back by quite a lot, the harness was built for me so it is the right size !
Not that i notice but it does make me wonder how much of an effect that gap causes with air obviously having a big area to push against ??
It may make me want to pick a different container manufacturer this time.

Thank you. Everyone I know that has a G4 says their rig does this. Seems to happen less on rigs with no chest ring and laterals sewed onto the MLW; G4 hip rings only and Vector. I actually have a G4 and I'm happy with it.