THE MIRAGE G4 PROBLEM

[diablopilot 2]

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So what are you trying to say!? Are you going to jump the G4 anymore or not? If so...give me your measurements and I will buy that container from you...I have plenty of people who wol dlove that G4 so put up, or shut up...

Oh man...

I'm not on here to just bash a manufacturer, and my previous post asking for a consensus and first hand experience should confirm that. Mirage makes a damn good rig, but many people are having this problem and there are NO POSTS anywhere revolving around this issue. And it is an issue for freeflyers.

Maybe it's not an issue for *many* people around the world?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[surfbum5412 0]

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You're absolutely right that Mirage would do everything possible to take care of any customer issues; that's not what we're talking about.

And I'm not on here to gripe. I have asked for people's first hand experience and have offered FACTUAL EVIDENCE combined with the question: "is anyone having this problem?" That's not griping, man. That's opening a discussion for people to see if there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

And good on you for bringing a potential problem to light. However, up to this point I don't think you've made a good case to support your hypothesis. Your factual evidence doesn't account for a few variables.

You've seen people's custom rigs lift off their backs (so have I - both Mirage and non-Mirage). But you still need to account for JP's question about how you know these people were measured correctly.

If they were measured by the manufacturer, then it may be an issue. If not, that seems to be the first weak link in the chain. Esp. since several others have volunteered that their custom-made Mirage G4's have no such problem.

I just got a Liquid Sky suit, custom-made for me, and had Julio measure me. It fits like a glove. A friend just got a Deepseed suit, custom-made for her, and had a seamstress measure her for it. The arms came back too short.

Based on this factual evidence, should we assume that Deepseed has an issue with making arms too short on their suits?

**BTW, never owned a Mirage rig, don't work for Liquid Sky , and not trying to flame you - just trying to point out that while opening up dialogue is good, we need to address all the possible links in the chain to see what's failing.

You are comparing apples-to-oranges, and anyone that knows about measuring rigs knows that it's ok to be off by a few centimeters. That difference would not cause a 6in. to 1ft. separation.

I mentioned before that these rigs were NOT self-measured.

Anyways, I have received a few PM's that have confirmed it's the geometry of the G4, and this has been confirmed by OTHER manufacturers.

[pms07 3]

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It is again, OK for the rig to separate itself from your back a little bit; it’s a natural arch/bend in your spin that does not care how well the rig fits...

It might be okay for you, but not me. Either the rig in the photo does not fit correctly or the legstraps are not tightened down properly...and when sitflying it becomes very apparent. If your rig floating off your back that far doesn't concern you, you might want to reconsider...

Edited to add: I see lots of G4s that fit the owner just fine. I'm not so sure that what you point out is actually a "G4 problem"...

[surfbum5412 0]

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It is again, OK for the rig to separate itself from your back a little bit; it’s a natural arch/bend in your spin that does not care how well the rig fits...

It might be okay for you, but not me. Either the rig in the photo does not fit correctly or the legstraps are not tightened down properly...and when sitflying it becomes very apparent. If your rig floating off your back that far doesn't concern you, you might want to reconsider...

Edited to add: I see lots of G4s that fit the owner just fine. I'm not so sure that what you point out is actually a "G4 problem"...

Thanks for the input.

That seems to be the consensus, referring to custom fitted rigs only, some fit fine and some don't. It seems to me that a lot of people run into a problem with the fully articulated harnesses. And less people run into a problem when they get the "tight fit" option.

[surfbum5412 0]

Picture of a custom fitted G4 in a sitfly position.

[mnealtx 0]

Look at where the leg strap attachments are in your picture - the leg position lets the attachment points move toward the back and the wind resistance of the bottom of the rig does the rest. I'd be willing to bet that if the person was in a stand that the leg strap attachments would be in a more 'normal' ('normal' = how the harness was designed to fit) and the separation from the back would be much less.

This is not a design problem, IMO. If you want it to sit tighter to your back in a sit, have Mirage or your friendly master rigger fit a bellyband to it.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[chutingstar 1]

Looks to be a fit problem, either how it's being worn (leg straps maybe could be tighter to pull hip junction down/forward?) or a harness sizing issue for this particular rig on this particular person. Can't tell for sure just from this one photo...

As to earlier comments about G4 containers and this being a common problem, I have yet to see it particular to the G4 containers...fit issues seem to hit all manufacturers occasionally, but is fixable.

And even if you're measured by an established dealer/rigger who does this every day, mistakes and/or fit issues can still happen either during the measurements, or during the interpretation of those measurements at the factory or during the manufacturing process. It's not an exact science. It seems about once a year we have a brand-new harness from a manufacturer that for some reason just doesn't fit the skydiver right, even though thet "did everything right" as far as who measured them, following a measuring guide, checked by the factory, etc. Usually it doesn't take much...an inch on a MLW can change the fit dramatically.

Mike

ChutingStar.com

[davelepka 4]

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Looks to be a fit problem, either how it's being worn (leg straps maybe could be tighter to pull hip junction down/forward?) or a harness sizing issue for this particular rig on this particular person. Can't tell for sure just from this one photo...

Have a look at the MLW, it looks long. Picture if the MLW was vertical, the length would be much more than the distance from the chest ring to the area the hip ring should sit. It also appears that the chest ring isn't helping things.

Even if the legstraps were tight, the slack in the MLW would allow them to rotate around the leg.

When you have too many rings on a harness, it becomes much harder to get a good fit in any body position. The harness has so much flexibility that it's easy to 'loosen' parts of it in certain body positions.

The jumper in the photo should be concerned. There have been instances of jumpers falling through the 'hole' in the back of the harness, and during a premature deployment at high speeds, this jumper appears to be at risk for just that.

It would be a mistake not to mention this to the jumper in question. If anyone knows who that is, please encourage them to have the photo and rig looked at by a rigger or over at Mirage. A few adjustments to the harness can shift things around for a more secure fit.

[riggerrob 558]

The hip ring should cover the iliac crest (lump of the pelvis), but this rig allows the hip joint to shift 4 inches too far aft.
Yes, a shorter MLW might help.
Tightening leg straps might help.
But the only long-term solution is adding a belly band across the hip rings.

Let's face it, harness rings sometimes allow too much flexibility.
Back in the mid-1990s - when Rigging Innovations was the only factory building ringed harnesses - I had to cut down hundreds of leg pads to "tighten up" Flexons and '94 Talons because the old harness-sizing algorithms did not work with ringed harnesses.

[pms07 3]

I think you just reinforced my point about correct harness fit and wear...

[piisfish 135]

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Picture of a custom fitted G4 in a sitfly position.

would you have a picture of the same skydiver/rig in a flat and arched position ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[surfbum5412 0]

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The hip ring should cover the iliac crest (lump of the pelvis), but this rig allows the hip joint to shift 4 inches too far aft.
Yes, a shorter MLW might help.
Tightening leg straps might help.
But the only long-term solution is adding a belly band across the hip rings.

Let's face it, harness rings sometimes allow too much flexibility.
Back in the mid-1990s - when Rigging Innovations was the only factory building ringed harnesses - I had to cut down hundreds of leg pads to "tighten up" Flexons and '94 Talons because the old harness-sizing algorithms did not work with ringed harnesses.

Here's a question:

Most rigs have the laterals sewn onto the MLW, but on the G4, the laterals are sewn onto the hip rings. With a fully articulated harness, could this be the problem?

[riggerrob 558]

Two different formulas for building hip rings.
When Rigging Innovations introduced hip rings in 1981, they sewed all the straps (main lift web, lateral back strap, lower leg strap and upper leg strap) to the hip ring. This helped pull the main container in tight to the users lower back.

However, when several other manufacturers tried copying R.I.'s ringed harness, they did not fully understand the geometry. Several tried "stepped" harnesses. Stepped harnesses have the lateral back straps sewn on several inches above the hip joint. Stepped harnesses allow you to sew a short container to a large harness. The disadvantage is that it leaves a large hole between the leg straps and bottom edge of hte back pad. The is seems to be the problem suffered by the original poster.

[diablopilot 2]

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Most rigs have the laterals sewn onto the MLW, but on the G4, the laterals are sewn onto the hip rings. With a fully articulated harness, could this be the problem?

Not true. Other manufacturers have built harnesses using the harness ring as a junction for the laterals and MLW. Some change the junction just depending on the size of harness/container combo.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[surfbum5412 0]

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Most rigs have the laterals sewn onto the MLW, but on the G4, the laterals are sewn onto the hip rings. With a fully articulated harness, could this be the problem?

Not true. Other manufacturers have built harnesses using the harness ring as a junction for the laterals and MLW. Some change the junction just depending on the size of harness/container combo.

Thanks for clarifying that.

[Dean358 0]

Hi Bill,

I freefly all the time in my G4 and most certainly do not have this problem. See attached photo (please forgive the bad form – it’s an old shot :-) I have Mirage’s so-called “fancy pants” elastic leg strap retainers option installed – something I don’t see on the rigs in the pics posted demonstrating the problem. I suspect this is why. Please check with your rigger, but if they agree than it’s very easy to add this option onto an existing rig. I can say without hesitation this a great rig for freeflying!

Cheers,
Dean

[piisfish 135]

May I repeat my question ?

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would you have a picture of the same skydiver/rig in a flat and arched position ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[sundevil777 93]

I don't see how the elastic leg strap retainer would affect this.

I also don't see how there is any differences in design between the different containers that would affect the result.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[pjc 0]

How do you put your rig on??

Make sure you do your chest strap up first and crank it tight, this pulls the lats forward and holds the bottom of the container tight on your back... Then crank the legstraps. (Definately do not have you chest strap loose AFF / FS stylee) I am on my 3rd G4 and I have never had a problem with this.

As a side note, I know a couple of accomplished FF coaches that deliberately do the inverse of this to let the rig lift off their back to catch air and give them more range head up...

[Hjeada 0]

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Didn't contact manufacturer; just wanted to get a consensus. At Perris, the consensus is that these things lift big time. I have seen videos where they have lifted off the persons back 1 - 1 1/2 feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWfJZW9PoPU
Check out 1:45 (1/2 foot seperation) and 2:11 (AT LEAST 1 foot of seperation)

I know both of those guys and they were both custom rigs.

I am in no way experienced or knowledgable enough to add to this discussion, however I did notice that at 2:15 in the above youtube clip that a Javelin container has 4-6 inches of separation as well from the back while in a sit...

Dudeist Skydiver #0511

[surfbum5412 0]

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May I repeat my question ?

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would you have a picture of the same skydiver/rig in a flat and arched position ?

[humanflite 0]

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So what are you trying to say!? Are you going to jump the G4 anymore or not? If so...give me your measurements and I will buy that container from you...I have plenty of people who wol dlove that G4 so put up, or shut up...

Oh man...

I'm not on here to just bash a manufacturer, and my previous post asking for a consensus and first hand experience should confirm that. Mirage makes a damn good rig, but many people are having this problem and there are NO POSTS anywhere revolving around this issue. And it is an issue for freeflyers.

Are you the sole spokesperson for 'all' these unhappy G4 owners?
Why are they not also posting in here...


Also, the rig is not 1 and 1.5 feet from his back in the video. NO where near that!

[piisfish 135]

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May I repeat my question ?

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would you have a picture of the same skydiver/rig in a flat and arched position ?

in the position on the picture, it doesn't look too bad...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[wardhessig 0]

Hello to all,
I figured I should chime in on a few things to clear the air about this post that has seemed to get a lot of attention and a lot of mis-information surrounding it.

Firstly, the "gap off your back while sit-flying" issue is not an issue that is only on Mirage containers, it can be an issue on all containers when sitflying but I'll get to that later.

In this particular picture there are two major things contributing to the excessive gap between the jumpers back and his rig.

1. The rig is not being worn properly at all!! The hip ring junction (and yes our hip ring is inline with our stabilizers, and yes we do make "cut in" or "inset" laterals (stabilizers)) should be on the very side of the body at the highest part of the hip bone where you pivot when you bend over or pick your legs up. In this picture it is almost sitting on the jumpers lower back. The legstraps should be rotated as far forward as possible, pulling the hip ring and the stabilizer, and consequently....the rig attached to those two items tighter into the jumpers back. The leg strap hardware should be low in the groin on the front hip of the jumper when worn correctly and as you can see in this picture the leg strap hardware is rotated around so far to the back it is almost where the hip ring should be.

2. The sizing on this rig does not look even close to being right for this jumper. The measurements may have been taken incorrectly. Even though it was a custom fit rig it doesnt mean we were given the right measurements to work with. We may have even sized it incorrectly with correct measurements but not to the extent that this rig is fitting improperly. It does happen and we do occasionally make mistakes with sizing harnesses since it's not an exact science but again, not to this extent. (a.)The main lift web on this rig is way too long which is contributing to the problem significantly. The stabilizers may be too long but it's hard to tell with the hip ring on his lower back. (b.) It also appears that he has too long of a chest extension (the material that runs from the yoke or neck of the container over the shoulders and down to the chest ring). Your chest ring and chest strap should be going over the nipples and it appears that this jumpers chest strap is 2-3 inches below his nipples.

When you're looking at a properly fitted rig the yoke should be no more than 1.5 inches or so below the knot on the back of your neck, the chest ring and chest strap should be directly over your nipples, the large ring of your three rings should sit directly in your shoulder pocket, and your hip ring should sit directly over your hip bone (you should be able to touch the highest and most center part of your hipbone through the ring).

Now getting to the part where it is not just a Mirage issue.... When properly fitted a rig should be snug to your lower back when standing erect. When you arch or push your pelvis forward that hip ring will rotate forward with your legs and pelvis pulling the stabilizer and the rig tighter to your back. When you de-arch (or sitfly) your legs come up, your pelvis and legs go towards your rig, and that hip ring junction rotates backwards as well while the stabilizers and the container attached to them go to the rear allowing the rig to gap off your back. It is an issue with all containers that have the container attached by stabilizers to a main lift web (WHICH IS ALL OF THEM), it is not the container it is the orientation of the jumper. If the container is snug to your back when standing, it will be more snug when arching and less snug when de-arching or sit-flying. We have a feature that helps to alleviate this problem that I wrote about in this past issue of a newsletter.http://www.miragesys.com/media/supportarticle/November%2007%20Newsletter.htm

Also, just to touch on a few other posts...I disagree that chest rings or too many rings make rigs fit improperly. Chest rings or articulation just make the harness conform much better. The rig has to come over your shoulders and then has to go to your hips on the side. There is a definite point that the webbing must change it's course and head to the hips and that is where the chest ring comes in. True, the harness will do that regardless but it's much more comfortable with no kinks in the webbing when there is a ring there as a junction allowing the harness to change directions. When fitted and worn properly it doesn't make it fit worse but only allows for a better harness geometry.

Thank you for the users that posted to contact the manufacturer and we would do everything in our power to help you, it's true, we will. But you have to contact us...we don't spend much time on the forums (we're too busy building rigs) and if we never know of the issue there is little we can do to help alleviate it or to educate people on it.

Please feel to email me at [email protected] with any questions or if there is anything I missed as this post is now going into the 45 minute stage and I'm tired of typing.

Blues
Ward

[surfbum5412 0]

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Hello to all,
I figured I should chime in on a few things to clear the air about this post that has seemed to get a lot of attention and a lot of mis-information surrounding it.

Firstly, the "gap off your back while sit-flying" issue is not an issue that is only on Mirage containers, it can be an issue on all containers when sitflying but I'll get to that later.

In this particular picture there are two major things contributing to the excessive gap between the jumpers back and his rig.

1. The rig is not being worn properly at all!! The hip ring junction (and yes our hip ring is inline with our stabilizers, and yes we do make "cut in" or "inset" laterals (stabilizers)) should be on the very side of the body at the highest part of the hip bone where you pivot when you bend over or pick your legs up. In this picture it is almost sitting on the jumpers lower back. The legstraps should be rotated as far forward as possible, pulling the hip ring and the stabilizer, and consequently....the rig attached to those two items tighter into the jumpers back. The leg strap hardware should be low in the groin on the front hip of the jumper when worn correctly and as you can see in this picture the leg strap hardware is rotated around so far to the back it is almost where the hip ring should be.

2. The sizing on this rig does not look even close to being right for this jumper. The measurements may have been taken incorrectly. Even though it was a custom fit rig it doesnt mean we were given the right measurements to work with. We may have even sized it incorrectly with correct measurements but not to the extent that this rig is fitting improperly. It does happen and we do occasionally make mistakes with sizing harnesses since it's not an exact science but again, not to this extent. (a.)The main lift web on this rig is way too long which is contributing to the problem significantly. The stabilizers may be too long but it's hard to tell with the hip ring on his lower back. (b.) It also appears that he has too long of a chest extension (the material that runs from the yoke or neck of the container over the shoulders and down to the chest ring). Your chest ring and chest strap should be going over the nipples and it appears that this jumpers chest strap is 2-3 inches below his nipples.

When you're looking at a properly fitted rig the yoke should be no more than 1.5 inches or so below the knot on the back of your neck, the chest ring and chest strap should be directly over your nipples, the large ring of your three rings should sit directly in your shoulder pocket, and your hip ring should sit directly over your hip bone (you should be able to touch the highest and most center part of your hipbone through the ring).

Now getting to the part where it is not just a Mirage issue.... When properly fitted a rig should be snug to your lower back when standing erect. When you arch or push your pelvis forward that hip ring will rotate forward with your legs and pelvis pulling the stabilizer and the rig tighter to your back. When you de-arch (or sitfly) your legs come up, your pelvis and legs go towards your rig, and that hip ring junction rotates backwards as well while the stabilizers and the container attached to them go to the rear allowing the rig to gap off your back. It is an issue with all containers that have the container attached by stabilizers to a main lift web (WHICH IS ALL OF THEM), it is not the container it is the orientation of the jumper. If the container is snug to your back when standing, it will be more snug when arching and less snug when de-arching or sit-flying. We have a feature that helps to alleviate this problem that I wrote about in this past issue of a newsletter.http://www.miragesys.com/media/supportarticle/November%2007%20Newsletter.htm

Also, just to touch on a few other posts...I disagree that chest rings or too many rings make rigs fit improperly. Chest rings or articulation just make the harness conform much better. The rig has to come over your shoulders and then has to go to your hips on the side. There is a definite point that the webbing must change it's course and head to the hips and that is where the chest ring comes in. True, the harness will do that regardless but it's much more comfortable with no kinks in the webbing when there is a ring there as a junction allowing the harness to change directions. When fitted and worn properly it doesn't make it fit worse but only allows for a better harness geometry.

Thank you for the users that posted to contact the manufacturer and we would do everything in our power to help you, it's true, we will. But you have to contact us...we don't spend much time on the forums (we're too busy building rigs) and if we never know of the issue there is little we can do to help alleviate it or to educate people on it.

Please feel to email me at [email protected] with any questions or if there is anything I missed as this post is now going into the 45 minute stage and I'm tired of typing.

Blues
Ward

Thank you for clarifying many things