Canopy transfer

[Hellis 0]

gowlerk

Quote

2) If you have a Skyhook or similar system, that might just kill you, because by pulling the reserve first you will cut away one side of the main and thus start spinning just as your reserve is deploying.

Either you or I do not completely understand the Skyhook system. Please explain how this could be?

I do agree that what we are calling a "canopy transfer" in this thread is not really one at all.

Collins lanyard.
But I believe this has been corrected with the new double RSL (one red and one yellow).
Not sure how it happened but I read the incident.

[Deimian 43]

Hellis

***

Quote

2) If you have a Skyhook or similar system, that might just kill you, because by pulling the reserve first you will cut away one side of the main and thus start spinning just as your reserve is deploying.

Either you or I do not completely understand the Skyhook system. Please explain how this could be?

I do agree that what we are calling a "canopy transfer" in this thread is not really one at all.

Collins lanyard.
But I believe this has been corrected with the new double RSL (one red and one yellow).
Not sure how it happened but I read the incident.

The Collins lanyard cuts away the left riser if it is still there when the right riser leaves after a cutaway (like in a partial pull or when the right riser breaks below the RSL shackle). AFAIK, if there is no cutaway, the Collins lanyard does nothing, so pulling the reserve will simply cause the RPC to extract, the skyhook will disconnect (if for whatever reason it doesn't the RPC will keep trailing behind and the freebag might fall if there is no staging loop, I am not sure if all/any the skyhook rigs have one), and eventually the RPC will extract the freebag and the reserve will open. If I got right the sequence of events I don't see how a collins lanyard can possibly release a riser without cutting away the main first.

[jurgencamps 0]

yoink

Assuming you do not have a MARD in your rig The BEST thing you can do is fire your reserve. That's when you start praying.
If you choose to continue that into a canopy transfer, that's up to you.

Can you prove that? Can you prove that firing a reserve in a ball of ... will be better?
If I have to perform my EP at a very low altitude, there will be no time between the cutaway and pulling the reserve. It will be (almost) simultaneous. One hand on each handle.

It is up to probabilities. Which solutions gives you a chance to survive?
I have seen more than once that people just pull reserve and do not cutaway anymore at an altitude which was still high enough to safely cutaway (@+ 1000 ft) and got killed.

To make it clear, 500 ft is not high enough to guarantee you a good outcome.
But launching an reserve in a spinning main, gives you certainly not an better chance to survival. Specially if you have the altitude (2000 ft, 1500 ft, 1000 ft ...)

So the question should be: till what altitude can you cutaway and pull reserve instantly (without getting back in free-fall) without killing yourself?

Forget the canopy transfer, except in some specific cases (see Bill Vons post above).

Isn't it sarcastic that people jump gear so small that it is possible that the reserve cannot get out in time?
Or a reserve so small that ...

[gowlerk 1,903]

I think I understand you now. You would choose cutaway and pray over reserve only and pray in this situation. But you understand that either way you are in a lot of trouble.

The way your original post was worded it seemed to say that a 500 foot cutaway would be the best option. I'm ok with you deciding to do that. But most people would prefer to try more nylon rather than returning to freefall. A spinning mal does not place your main directly over your head and your reserve pilot chute may indeed give you another deployed canopy.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[chuckakers 369]

billvon

...If you have a Skyhook or similar system, that might just kill you, because by pulling the reserve first you will cut away one side of the main and thus start spinning just as your reserve is deploying.

Bill, that doesn't sound correct. I was under the impression that deploying the reserve on a MARD system will only launch the reserve pilot chute and nothing else.

If what you say is true I'd say that's a pretty big negative for MARDs.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[EvilGenius 0]

I found this on UPT's website....

Quote

While a normal RSL automatically pulls the reserve ripcord pin following a breakaway, the new UPT Skyhook RSL goes two steps further. It automatically releases the non-RSL riser in case the RSL riser was released prematurely (ensuring your reserve will not deploy with half your main still attached).

[Blis 1]

EvilGenius

I found this on UPT's website....

Quote

While a normal RSL automatically pulls the reserve ripcord pin following a breakaway, the new UPT Skyhook RSL goes two steps further. It automatically releases the non-RSL riser in case the RSL riser was released prematurely (ensuring your reserve will not deploy with half your main still attached).

So, it releases the other side ONLY IF the rsl side was released too. In otherwords, if both risers are still connected it wont release anything.

[chuckakers 369]

EvilGenius

I found this on UPT's website....

Quote

While a normal RSL automatically pulls the reserve ripcord pin following a breakaway, the new UPT Skyhook RSL goes two steps further. It automatically releases the non-RSL riser in case the RSL riser was released prematurely (ensuring your reserve will not deploy with half your main still attached).

That doesn't say the riser will release if the reserve is deployed. It says the second riser will be released if the first one is released to keep the reserve from deploying into a still-connected main.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[EvilGenius 0]

It was a little ambiguous but I think you're correct, the riser won't disconnect in the case of a reserve activation only. Some googling tells me that this functionality is based on a Colins Lanyard (had to look that one up too!), which if I'm reading the diagram right can't disconnect anything without a departing main.

[format 0]

chuckakers

***...If you have a Skyhook or similar system, that might just kill you, because by pulling the reserve first you will cut away one side of the main and thus start spinning just as your reserve is deploying.

Bill, that doesn't sound correct. I was under the impression that deploying the reserve on a MARD system will only launch the reserve pilot chute and nothing else.

If what you say is true I'd say that's a pretty big negative for MARDs.

I'm no kissass
I bet my bounce on Bills's angle

edit: or when I read it again, "first you will cut away one side of the main"

[hillson 0]

How? Here's a picture of the system installed.

Blue is the spectra reserve ripcord.

Yellow is the Collins Lanyard around the left side cutaway cable

Red is the Skyhook lanyard.

Black / white is the RSL (direct pull).

Tell me how activating the reserve cuts away one side of the main risers.

[edit] yes, there were earlier variants of the Collins lanyard...I believe the first version was a separate spectra (?) cord with finger trapped loops that went around one of the risers on the RSL side and the left cable, then another that had the cable pass through the a loop on the "black" portion of the RSL...and now the third version which I have...which has been out for many years. In any case, none of them were connected to the ripcord etc.

[Hellis 0]

That is the point of why they changed the RSL design.
The new one can't do this error, but the old one can.
I have the old version in my rig, but because I don't have the skyhook it's safe.

The problem was if the skyhook did not let go in case of normal reserv deployment.
Then the RPC pulled skyhook and RSL with it, and disconnecting the left side with collins lanyard.

[AdD 1]

Hillson you stole my avatar!

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[nigel99 143]

chuckakers

***...If you have a Skyhook or similar system, that might just kill you, because by pulling the reserve first you will cut away one side of the main and thus start spinning just as your reserve is deploying.

Bill, that doesn't sound correct. I was under the impression that deploying the reserve on a MARD system will only launch the reserve pilot chute and nothing else.

If what you say is true I'd say that's a pretty big negative for MARDs.

It's not correct it's a misunderstanding of the colins lanyard. Pulling the reserve does not activate the RSL functionality.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Hellis 0]

nigel99

******...If you have a Skyhook or similar system, that might just kill you, because by pulling the reserve first you will cut away one side of the main and thus start spinning just as your reserve is deploying.

Bill, that doesn't sound correct. I was under the impression that deploying the reserve on a MARD system will only launch the reserve pilot chute and nothing else.

If what you say is true I'd say that's a pretty big negative for MARDs.

It's not correct it's a misunderstanding of the colins lanyard. Pulling the reserve does not activate the RSL functionality.


So what was the reason they changed the RSL design and sent out a bultin, and if I recall correct it was mandatory to replace it for those with skyhook.
Why would they do that?

[mxk 1]

Hellis

That is the point of why they changed the RSL design.
The new one can't do this error, but the old one can.
I have the old version in my rig, but because I don't have the skyhook it's safe.

The problem was if the skyhook did not let go in case of normal reserv deployment.
Then the RPC pulled skyhook and RSL with it, and disconnecting the left side with collins lanyard.

I'd like to understand this a bit better. By the old design do you mean the one for which the Split RSL-Vector 3 Modification was published?

Thinking about the reserve deployment sequence with the Skyhook, in the old version the red lanyard would apply ~8 lbs of force (enough the break the safety thread) via the black tape directly to the edge of the Velcro, and possibly pass some of that to the left cutaway cable. I can see how that might be enough to pull the cable a few inches and release the left non-RSL riser. What the new version does is shift the load further up the Velcro and away from the cutaway cable. If the Velcro releases, the new version might still pull the cutway cable, but I'm assuming that it holds with sufficient force that the Skyhook safety thread would break first.

Seems like this would only be a problem if you deploy the reserve with a somewhat functional main still attached, but still an interesting consideration.

[Hellis 0]

The new version is split all the way to the RSL shakle.
So as long as the RSL is "activated" it can't happen.
If it is off it canpeel the velcro all the way and then release the riser.
If I recall the design correct.

[mxk 1]

Hellis

The new version is split all the way to the RSL shakle.
So as long as the RSL is "activated" it can't happen.
If it is off it canpeel the velcro all the way and then release the riser.
If I recall the design correct.

I got my V3 six months ago. Unless they changed it again in that time, and there is nothing about it on the website, the current design is split for about 4".

[Hellis 0]

Correct, as far as know.
But the previous version was one piece, and could disconnect the left riser if rigger incorrect (that is the only reason I can see it happen)

[billvon 2,380]

> I was under the impression that deploying the reserve on a MARD system will only
>launch the reserve pilot chute and nothing else.

You are correct. Pulling the reserve handle will not cut away anything; only deploy the reserve.

My post was in error. I was confusing something we had talked about a long time ago. If the Skyhook does not disconnect during reserve deployment (which is very rare) then the reserve PC can "carry along" the RSL/Collins lanyard. The RSL won't do anything (reserve already pulled) but the Collins lanyard can then cut away one side of the main if the slack between the RSL and the PC allows it to do so.

I have never seen this problem in actual use. The only time I have seen something come close is when the RSL has gotten snagged during climbout; the other side of the canopy was then partially cut away.

But again, it's not the pull of the reserve handle that does it, it's the action of the Skyhook during a specific failure, so it wasn't accurate for me to say that it will happen with any regularity.

[Levik 0]

billvon

My post was in error. I was confusing something we had talked about a long time ago. If the Skyhook does not disconnect during reserve deployment (which is very rare) then the reserve PC can "carry along" the RSL/Collins lanyard. The RSL won't do anything (reserve already pulled) but the Collins lanyard can then cut away one side of the main if the slack between the RSL and the PC allows it to do so.

If the Skyhook does not release, you will also have a problem with a non functioning reserve PC until you have disconnected the RSL shackle. Or am I wrong? I dont know of any incidents where this had to be done.

[Di0 1]

Levik

***
My post was in error. I was confusing something we had talked about a long time ago. If the Skyhook does not disconnect during reserve deployment (which is very rare) then the reserve PC can "carry along" the RSL/Collins lanyard. The RSL won't do anything (reserve already pulled) but the Collins lanyard can then cut away one side of the main if the slack between the RSL and the PC allows it to do so.

If the Skyhook does not release, you will also have a problem with a non functioning reserve PC until you have disconnected the RSL shackle. Or am I wrong? I dont know of any incidents where this had to be done.

Not really. Granted we are in the realm of "freak accidents" so it's hard to come up with a correct, tested, verifiable answer, but my gut-feeling is that the reserve will extract, maybe with some delay, because the PC and the bridle of the reserve connects to the FREE-BAG, so once that bag is out, the reserve "might" (might? should? might not?) extract outside the bag without the impediment of being physically "leashed" to the bag by the bridle, which remains connected through the skyhook system, like a main would.

Still that's a lot of IFs.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[ChrisHoward 8]

billvon

2) If you have a Skyhook or similar system, that might just kill you, because by pulling the reserve first you will cut away one side of the main and thus start spinning just as your reserve is deploying.

This is flat out wrong. But nice job scaring the piss out of every one that thought they understood their gear

[ChrisHoward 8]

Hellis

So what was the reason they changed the RSL design and sent out a bultin, and if I recall correct it was mandatory to replace it for those with skyhook.
Why would they do that?

I believe it was due to the tandem fatality where they theorized that after a Cypres fire the free bag fell out of the container and the weight of the bagged canopy back loaded the Collins lanyard causing an un-intended cut away. Not sure how much supporting evidence they had here and how much was hypothetical.
It is also the same reason that they re-introduced the staging loop (at the same time) to keep the free bag in the container until the RPC is actually pulling it out. I also believe this was not mandatory but a suggested retro fit. The staging loop was not mandatory.

Hellis

The new version is split all the way to the RSL shakle.

Are you sure of this. The newest UPT rig I have packed was a 2014 and it was still split mid way. SunPath though have a lanyard split all the way to the shackle.