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Canopy transfer

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Say it's too low when you realize your main is been teared.
You'd like to have a reserve opened but there's no time for cutaway.

Is there a way to deploy a reserve without messing with a potentially lethal main?



You need to reword your post. You can deploy a reserve regardless of the condition of your main by pulling "silver."

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English isn't his first language. His intention is clear.
And I don't know of any good ways to guarantee anything in that situation. Back when reserves didn't always have pilot chutes and were accessible by your hands, you were supposed to throw the bulk of the reserve into the spin to give it the best chance of of opening clean. But even with slow-spinning rounds here weren't any guarantees.

I think the mantra now is "'if you have a ball of shit, try to make it the biggest ball of shit you can." But it's a bad situation. Sometimes you get a shitty hand.

I think this post is in reaction to the French fatality.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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wmw999

I think this post is in reaction to the French fatality.


[:/] Yes.
Eventually, it made me thinking of various potential bad scenarios.
For instance, a small tear on main canopy or some line looking like it's going to snap..

And you figure it to low to cutaway BUT you don't want to deploy reserve because it may entangle with main.

So, is there a way to deploy reserve under main but safely?

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to low to cutaway BUT you don't want to deploy reserve because it may entangle with main. So, is there a way to deploy reserve under main but safely?



If your main canopy has forward speed, activating the reserve will cause it to deploy horizontally behind you. As it starts to inflate and rise up overhead, then you can cut-away the main.

However, at slow speeds like that, the reserve will take a while to get out of the bag and inflate, so in your low altitude scenario, it may or may not inflate in time.

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Furiosa


If your main canopy has forward speed, activating the reserve will cause it to deploy horizontally behind you. As it starts to inflate and rise up overhead, then you can cut-away the main.

and where will your risers go ? You might kill people with that kind of advice.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Say it's too low when you realize your main is been teared.
You'd like to have a reserve opened but there's no time for cutaway.

Is there a way to deploy a reserve without messing with a potentially lethal main?



1. when is it too low to cutaway? Some even think that they cannot cutaway below 1500 ft.
2. For ex. spinning around at 500 ft.
- do you pull the reserve and hope that it will not make just a bigger mess
or
- do you cutaway and pull at the same time and hope that your reserve inflates in time,
or
- lucky me I have a MARD ...


An AAD should open your reserve in time at 750 ft when still in free-fall. So I think that I personally would take the risk to cutaway and pull the reserve at 500 ft. But it is still better to detect a problem much higher.
I witnessed a cutaway once (no RSL or MARD) at that altitude (or even lower). She survived, but had only a reserve-ride of 3 sec. She was in final and was hit from above by somebody who made a 90° toggle turn to "swoop" his landing.

May be this is a good reason to have a bigger reserve that fits not to tight in your container and to drill your reserve procedures before each jump.

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jurgencamps

lucky me I have a MARD ...


An AAD should open your reserve in time at 750 ft when still in free-fall. So I think that I personally would take the risk to cutaway and pull the reserve at 500 ft. But it is still better to detect a problem much higher.



Not only is this a terrible idea that will most likely kill you, but it's a prime example of gear dependence that has been brought up in the AAD thread.
www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

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mcordell

*** lucky me I have a MARD ...


An AAD should open your reserve in time at 750 ft when still in free-fall. So I think that I personally would take the risk to cutaway and pull the reserve at 500 ft. But it is still better to detect a problem much higher.



Not only is this a terrible idea that will most likely kill you, but it's a prime example of gear dependence that has been brought up in the AAD thread.

Wow. All I can say is go back and try to better understand what a MARD does. The most common MARD is the Skyhook and it frequently releases and allows the pilot chute to extract the reserve. MARDS allow for cleaner quicker deployments, especially in high speed spins. They DO NOT allow you to cut away low and get away with it. Please be more careful what you post here. I am very surprised that a man of your experience would give such poor advice.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

****** lucky me I have a MARD ...


An AAD should open your reserve in time at 750 ft when still in free-fall. So I think that I personally would take the risk to cutaway and pull the reserve at 500 ft. But it is still better to detect a problem much higher.



Not only is this a terrible idea that will most likely kill you, but it's a prime example of gear dependence that has been brought up in the AAD thread.

Wow. All I can say is go back and try to better understand what a MARD does. The most common MARD is the Skyhook and it frequently releases and allows the pilot chute to extract the reserve. MARDS allow for cleaner quicker deployments, especially in high speed spins. They DO NOT allow you to cut away low and get away with it. Please be more careful what you post here. I am very surprised that a man of your experience would give such poor advice.

I have to assume that reply was not directed at me since I was saying the exact same thing as you
www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

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Sorry, but please reread my post. I gave 3 options and no, I do not have a MARD.
How many cutaways and reserves have you ever made? Preferably under a spinning main.
Is it really a good idea to just fire your reserve in a certain mess?
Option 1 and option 2 requires both some luck.
So your best option is to detect the problem above 1000 ft.


But have you ever seen the video of the Petra that collapses just before the landing. How high was that guy, would a canopytransfer gave him more changes to survive then a cutaway?

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jurgencamps


But have you ever seen the video of the Petra that collapses just before the landing. How high was that guy, would a canopytransfer gave him more changes to survive then a cutaway?




You didn't suggest a canopy transfer though. You said "So I think that I personally would take the risk to cutaway and pull the reserve at 500 ft."

Cutaway and reserve pull is NOT a canopy transfer and would most likely end badly at 500ft. We need to communicate clearly if we teach that as a potential solution.
Low canopy transfer - maybe. Low cutaway - NO.

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If you are a dead man if you do nothing then by all means do SOMETHING.IF I am at 500 ft and my canopy splits wide open you bet your ass I am going for a canopy transfer. If I am at 1000' and my lines break and I have an un-survivable canopy I am performing a canopy transfer. WTF do I do just sit and look at it and go fuck it I'm dead but someone on Dizzy told me to never try a canopy transfer so I had better just accept that i'm a dead man.

Edit to add I have skyhooks in both my rigs just for this very oh shit moment but id still go for a canopy transfer (deploy reserve followed by cutting away gunslinger fast) as that is what I have always trained my brain to think under 1000' you guys can argue and act all smart and shit but if you canopy turns to shit under 1000' please prepare to do SOMETHING now before it happens and if nothing else it will keep you distracted from the giant rock that is hurtling at you. And go ask your DZO or AFFI what they plan on doing during the last seconds of their life. I am pretty sure they have a plan.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

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I once cut away at about 800 ft. from a Stiletto that I made the mistake of stalling at 1000'. I would not cutaway lower than that, I would try a canopy transfer. I ended up landing on concrete, still in line twists, under a 5 cell Swift. And I still have a slight limp from it. I have lost count of my cutaways, but it's 5 or 6.

You indicated that cutting away at 500' is a viable option. It is not. That's the part I would like you to clear up.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I don't really care if there is video of someone doing that. The point is that people look here for advice. You have given advice that is dangerous. I repeat, advising people that cutting away at 500 is a viable option, and implying that a MARD makes it ok is incorrect.

Perhaps it's just the way you worded your post that makes it seem like you would advise cutting away a spinning mal as low as 500ft and that a MARD would make a difference. Is that the case?
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

I don't really care if there is video of someone doing that. The point is that people look here for advice. You have given advice that is dangerous. I repeat, advising people that cutting away at 500 is a viable option, and implying that a MARD makes it ok is incorrect.

Perhaps it's just the way you worded your post that makes it seem like you would advise cutting away a spinning mal as low as 500ft and that a MARD would make a difference. Is that the case?



I admit that 500 is very low. The point I want to make is a post above yours, where 1000 ft is already considered as too low. At 500 ft, whatever you do, you can only hope and pray that it will work out. But at 1000 ft, this should not be a problem. To often I read here, " my hard deck is 2000/1500 ft, I will do a canopy transfer from that altitude.

You did a cut away at 800ft and still had line twists. You still limb a little bit. But if you had done a canopy transfer, are you sure that you had a better landing or could it be that you just had just a big ball of .... above your head and broke every bone?
A MARD would not make me go lower,I hope iit would just gives me a better chance when things go wrong at low altitude.

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@ gowlerk
I do not know the size of your reserve, but a bigger reserve, gives you a better chance to not hurt yourself on a case like yours. Not having enough time to untwist the linetwist or not able to pick a good landing spot. To often people jump very small reserves. It 's fine as long as everything works out fine.
I jump a velo 90 and a storm 120. My reserve is tempo 150. My next reserve will be a 160 speed.

A frend hited once the ground at linestretch. He was lucky to survive. Some factors were in his advantage: a soft underground, but it happened before cypress existed, so his reserve was big (a 170 was a small size,a 210 was normal) and slowed him down enough to survive without much damage.

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>Is there a way to deploy a reserve without messing with a potentially lethal main?

The old term was "canopy transfer" - pulling your reserve, waiting a few seconds for reserve deployment to begin, then cutting away your main. However I don't recommend this for several reasons.

1) It is of limited utility. Basically only when you are very low and your main is unlandable but controllable. A sudden nose to tail split at 600 feet, but perfectly symmetric for example. Needless to say this is rare.

2) If you have a Skyhook or similar system, that might just kill you, because by pulling the reserve first you will cut away one side of the main and thus start spinning just as your reserve is deploying.

3) Modern rigs are becoming tighter and tighter, partly because people want small rigs and partly because rig designers wish to inhibit reserve deployments during low-pull Cypres fires. (That way you land trailing your reserve PC instead of trying to land a two-out.) That means that it's not going to start deploying until you cut away anyway.

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Quote

2) If you have a Skyhook or similar system, that might just kill you, because by pulling the reserve first you will cut away one side of the main and thus start spinning just as your reserve is deploying.




Either you or I do not completely understand the Skyhook system. Please explain how this could be?

I do agree that what we are calling a "canopy transfer" in this thread is not really one at all.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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billvon

\
3) Modern rigs are becoming tighter and tighter, [] partly because rig designers wish to inhibit reserve deployments during low-pull Cypres fires.



If this is true, it's one of the dumbest things I've heard in a while.

[:/]

The solution to that problem is educational. Not to constrain reserve deployment conditions.

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jurgencamps

At 500 ft, whatever you do, you can only hope and pray that it will work out.



Again, I think you're giving poor advice.

If you have an issue at 500ft, you're in the shit, no denying it. But there's a spectrum of things you can do there and some are worse than others.

Assuming you do not have a MARD in your rig The BEST thing you can do is fire your reserve. That's when you start praying.
If you choose to continue that into a canopy transfer, that's up to you.

One of the WORST things you can do is cutaway and then pull silver as you suggested.

Putting yourself back into freefall at 500ft has a near 0 survivability.

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