Cobalt

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

I was under the impression that the Cobalt only came in sizes 150 and smaller. However, a few times I have seen 170 and 190 Cobalts listed in the classifieds.. Are these BS ads, or what's the deal?? I'd like to try one out, but I don't need to be jumping a 150 any time soon.

[AggieDave 6]

I demoed a Cobalt 170 back in 2001 or 2002, so I know that they were made.

Are you wanting to try one out by purchasing one or demoing one? If you search around a little bit you'll find a lot of posts on the Cobalt and compared to other canopies. As I understand it now, Atair still produces sport canopies, but they are focused on their military contracts.

The real question is what are your long term goals in terms of canopy flight? Are you wanting a fun canopy for every day skydiving or are you looking for a canopy to really start learning how to swoop on?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JanuszPS 0]

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The real question is what are your long term goals in terms of canopy flight? Are you wanting a fun canopy for every day skydiving or are you looking for a canopy to really start learning how to swoop on?

As the matter of interests, which of these two classifications is Cobalt?
regards
Janusz

Back to Poland... back home.

[AggieDave 6]

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As the matter of interests, which of these two classifications is Cobalt?

It depends on who you ask.

Personally I put the Cobalt outside of a modern canopy progression. I place it in the same class as the Stiletto. Sure its a fun canopy, but it doesn't set you up to progress to a modern design swooping canopy.

I would rather see someone go Sabre2, Katana to Velocity or Safire2, Crossfire2 to VX. Those canopies compliment each other as your progress.

Not to say that the Cobalt isn't a fun canopy to fly, though.

There have been some reports about quality control from Atair, though. That various canopies in the same size don't open or fly the same. I had a really bad personal experience with the Cobalt and Atair as a whole, but I wouldn't discourage you from exploring the canopy. That is IF you're qualified for the canopy and are jumping it in a size/wingloading that is appropriate for your jump numbers.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jtval 0]

I have a cobalt 150. I LOVE IT. It is FUN to fly. but the "Swoop" is pretty tame.

Compared to my sabre2 150 the cobalt might get 1/2 the swoop.

My photos

My Videos

[JanuszPS 0]

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Not to say that the Cobalt isn't a fun canopy to fly, though.

Sure it is

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There have been some reports about quality control from Atair, though. That various canopies in the same size don't open or fly the same. I had a really bad personal experience with the Cobalt and Atair as a whole, but I wouldn't discourage you from exploring the canopy.

I already described one extreme situation with my Cobalt before reline...

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That is IF you're qualified for the canopy and are jumping it in a size/wingloading that is appropriate for your jump numbers.

I hope I am and after 150 jumps @1.4 no complains so far about the way it fly. It is great to fly, play and land.

But I wasn't happy from my experience with SA2 150 @ 1.25WL. After over 100 jumps I was glad taking it out from my rig and moving to Cobalt. Maybe I should have given a try to another sabre...?

What about competition or H-mod Cobalt? Is it a better choice having in mind a future possibility of moving to X-braced canopy?
Janusz

Back to Poland... back home.

[AggieDave 6]

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Maybe I should have given a try to another sabre...?

Its a personal choice. I prefer PD canopies, but I get a discount from PD, so you can take my opinion or leave it. Decide for yourself. Call Kim and get a demo. A Sabre2 loaded at 1.4 is a hot canopy. A Sabre2 at 1.7 and flown right, can flat out embarrass some people on "higher" performance canopies.

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What about competition or H-mod Cobalt? Is it a better choice having in mind a future possibility of moving to X-braced canopy?

H-mods tend to make the canopy dive a little more, but really when comparing to what are considered X-braced stepping canopies (Katana and the XF2), the Cobalt doesn't even come close! Both of those canopies out dive and out swoop the Cobalt. Don't believe my opinion. If you are ready for those canopies (ask your local canopy mentor), demo both the XF2 and the Katana.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[peek 21]

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Personally I put the Cobalt outside of a modern canopy progression. I place it in the same class as the Stiletto. Sure its a fun canopy, but it doesn't set you up to progress to a modern design swooping canopy.

OK, Dave, enough already! How many times are you going to use the word "modern" in your posts?

Not everyone wants to "progress" to swooping. Please contact John LeBlanc for a copy of his presentation at the 2009 PIA Symposium, which describes two different paths to which to "progress".

(Funny thing is, he said he gave this presentation at the 2007 Symposium, but I missed it, and evidently a lot of people did, or they wouldn't go around assuming a progression toward swooping.)

Check out PD's newest canopy, the "Pulse".

[stitch 0]

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As I understand it now, Atair still produces sport canopies, but they are focused on their military contracts.

Just as a point of reference, Atair USA and Atair are now 2 seperate companies. Stane has severed all of his ties to Atair USA. I suppose Atair USA still has the license to manufacture the Cobalt and Onyx, but don't know for sure.

Stane has a new sport canopy called the Radical. see here.

http://www.basetroll.com/

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[gearless_chris 1]

I have jumped a Comp Cobalt 170, so I can guarantee you that 170 Cobalt's exist, I think the regular Cobalt did go up to a 190. If you want to buy one make sure you jump it first, when I say it, I mean the exact canopy you want to buy. With their very poor quality you have no idea what you'll get if you did make the mistake of getting a new one.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[parachutist 2]

Cobalt line scpecs published by Atair go up to 170:
http://www.atairaerodynamics.com/images/linespecs.jpg

I don't know about 190s

[AggieDave 6]

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Not everyone wants to "progress" to swooping.

Gary, I understand this. I talk about this in the canopy classes and coaching I conduct. That's also why this was posted in my very first post to this thread: "The real question is what are your long term goals in terms of canopy flight? Are you wanting a fun canopy for every day skydiving or are you looking for a canopy to really start learning how to swoop on?"

Wanting to progress to a swoop type landing or not, the fundamentals of canopy flight are the same. Learning about patterns, accuracy, recovery arcs and what each input on the canopy does separately and together is important for every single jumper. The delineation begins when you start purposely using a speed enduing maneuver for final.

I will, however, call John and see about a copy of his talk, since I haven't heard it yet.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JanuszPS 0]

As my next step I was considering CC120 or Radical 120, but unfortunately there is limited info about the canopy (Radical) - not to many reviews and opinions.
In terms of my current one I thought about putting the H-mod in Atair (Slovenia) as my opening process end up usually with some sort off-heading openings but soft. I would prefer to have on-heading as I try to jump in lots of BWC and large formations...
I might post some picture with sequences of the opining for critics.
Janusz

Back to Poland... back home.

[justme12001 0]

I have a radical 135 (wl 1.8) it has fairly light front riser pressure, and I love the way it flies. It gets pretty good swoops, however the recovery arc is a little shorter than the katana. 180 deg approach on Kat is about 600 ft and is about 400 on the radical. I am looking into getting the H-mod for it if anyone knows where I can get that.

[JanuszPS 0]

and some site note,

from Radical manual I noted that the measuring method in Atair is different than PIA method and is based on the span by chord of the bottom skin. the same method applied to Cobalts as per my phone conversation and e-mail with Stane. So the size of the wing is as below:
* 95 ft.2 = PIA spec 100 ft.2
* 100 ft. 2 = PIA spec 105 ft.2
* 105 ft. 2 = PIA spec 110 ft.2
* 120 ft. 2 = PIA spec 130 ft.2
* 135 ft. 2 = PIA spec 145 ft.2
* 150 ft. 2 = PIA spec 160 ft.2
Any experience with measuring Cobalts or comparing with other canopies?
Janusz

Back to Poland... back home.

[CygnusX-1 43]

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Call Kim and get a demo.

Just an FYI, Kim doesn't work at PD anymore. As I know nothing about the decision to let her go, I can't comment on why or what the status is of the demo program.

[JanuszPS 0]

Ask Stane at stane(at)basetroll.com if that modification is available for Radicals.

Have you tired Cobalt of the same size? I just interested in opinions about the canopy (Radical).

Janusz

Back to Poland... back home.

[AggieDave 6]

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Just an FYI, Kim doesn't work at PD anymore.

OH! Sorry, I didn't realize that.

I'm sure the demo program is still going strong, whomever is heading it up for PD now.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Emu 0]

Half the swoop of your Sabre2? You have to be fucking me...

[gearless_chris 1]

Maybe he meant his technique works better with his Sabre2.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[AndyMan 7]

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Check out PD's newest canopy, the "Pulse".

I'll be more impressed with the Pulse once I see how many people buy it.

At my DZ, even the old-timers who don't swoop fly the same canopies as the people that do. There's an inordinate number of people flying Katanas and Crossfires at low and high wing loadings that fly standard approaches.

The fact is that the manufacturers have done a great job of selling the image of swooping. Even the people that don't swoop, do buy into the image and buy the same HP canopies.

If PD wants the Pulse to be a success they have an immense marketing job ahead of them that I think directly contradicts a lot of the message from recent history. For example, PD has recently put a lot of money marketing the Spectre, but I never saw a lot of non-sponsored or cameraflyers flying them, because it was never 'cool' despite PD's full page ads. You don't even see that many camera flyers flying them any more. Even Tony Hathaway went the way of the Velocity. All that money that went into the marketing the Spectre went to waste (i prognosticate...) because the message was out of line with the bigger PD image.

I think PD has an immense challenge to make the Pulse something different than the Silhouette. I just don't hear a lot of people talking about it, outside of the industry itself.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[AllisonH 0]

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At my DZ, even the old-timers who don't swoop fly the same canopies as the people that do. There's an inordinate number of people flying Katanas and Crossfires at low and high wing loadings that fly standard approaches.

I think this probably varies from dropzone to dropzone. At my DZ, Pilots are very popular among the non-swooping crowd, and we have several people flying Spectres and Sillhouettes as well. Some of these people have been around for quite a while, and picked the canopy they thought best fit their flying/landing style, while others are new and bought what was suggested or what they could get a good deal on. Might depend somewhat on what the local instructors/gear store are recommending. To me, a canopy is like a jumpsuit -- it's possible to get one that will "do it all" but you'll likely be much happier and more successful if you find the one that meets your goals/needs/expectations.

[gearless_chris 1]

I've seen that at one of my dz's as well. The dzo had a student Velo (120), rarely did more than a 90, but it gave him bragging rights as to having the only Xbrace on the dz. The S&TA jumped a 99 Xfire2 because it opens nice, he's a little fella so he only loads it at 1.6, he only lands straight in. So which camera fliers are left with Spectre's Norman Kent? In most of the videos that I've seen the opening, the camera guys are jumping Xbraces.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[g-bomb 0]

Hey, Ryan!
I don't know if you remember, but I went to Cobalt 150 before leaving Indiana - one season down the road I stil love it a lot. Very easy to transition from sabre 170, and I had my brother flew it last summer just fine right after Sabre170.
I like openings, great flare and very good responsive control. and don't forget - the only thing you can get at PD for the price of cobalt is their reserve, so for my money I'll take the cobalt - I got a deal on a used one that I'll keep until it's time to go smaller.
PD does have great customer support, etc, but I am still I the "new-to-me" market bracket. Why buy a stiletto with hundreds of jumps when you can get a barely used cobalt for the same price?
Once you ready for 150 - come over and fly mine, I'll make you a believer.

[sberkovitz 0]

For what it's worth, the two colbalt 190's posted in the classifieds are actually 170's (and it's a duplicate post).

-Steven