Remster 26 #1 February 11, 2009 Hey riggers... My reserve was packed on 26 nov. Can I still jump it the 25 may, or does it become out of date that day? I usually dont bother trying to squeeze the max out of a job, but, the dates for an event fall that way...Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #2 February 12, 2009 My understanding is that if your rig was inspected and repacked on 26 Nov 2008, you are allowed to jump it up to and including 25 May 2009. Some might not agree with the way I interpret the regulation and/or count the days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #3 February 12, 2009 That's a tough one. The regulation says 180 days not six months, (see http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=ea5df3b27aa32c77eb7e8c1d4091a1e5&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.17.2.9.2&idno=14) so I counted the days figuring February was a short month and you might pick up a day or two. You don't. By my count it still hits the 180 day mark on May 25. I think you will find confusion among riggers and the FAA about your question unless somebody has case law that clarifies. I think your best bet is to get the rig packed, or as an alternative contact the organizers of the event and ask them if they will accept your rig as meeting the requirements for the duration of the event.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 26 #4 February 12, 2009 Thanks guys... I know May 25 is exactly 180 days after Nov 26. I guess its a grey area... I'll ask manifest this weekend, since they are the ones who will be checking it,Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #5 February 12, 2009 QuoteThat's a tough one. The regulation says 180 days not six months, (see http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=ea5df3b27aa32c77eb7e8c1d4091a1e5&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.17.2.9.2&idno=14) so I counted the days figuring February was a short month and you might pick up a day or two. You don't. By my count it still hits the 180 day mark on May 25. I think you will find confusion among riggers and the FAA about your question unless somebody has case law that clarifies. I think your best bet is to get the rig packed, or as an alternative contact the organizers of the event and ask them if they will accept your rig as meeting the requirements for the duration of the event. This question is not about the difference between 180 days and 6 months. It is about the interpretation of the regulation, in other words, how to count the 180 days. FAR 105.43 contains: Quote (b) The reserve parachute must have been packed by a certificated parachute rigger— (1) Within 180 days before the date of its use, if its canopy, shroud, and harness are composed exclusively of nylon, rayon, or similar synthetic fiber or material that is substantially resistant to damage from mold, mildew, and other fungi, and other rotting agents propagated in a moist environment; or The crux of the matter is the meaning of "180 days before the date of its use". Here's the way I read and interpret it. If you are using the parachute today, then "yesterday" is "1 day before the date of its use". Had the regulation said "within 1 day before the date of its use" it would be legal to jump today if it was repacked yesterday. Do we agree so far? If not, please explain. The actual rule says "180 days before the date of its use". By my interpretation, the repack may have been done today or on any of the 180 "yesterdays". This means a repack is actually good on a total of 181 days. Given a repack date of 26 Nov 2008, you have that day and 180 more days to use that parachute before another inspection is required. 25 May 2009 is the last of the "180 more days", so it is legal to jump the rig on that day. (To the people involved in the update of AC105 - I would love to see this topic covered in the new version.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #6 February 13, 2009 I'd say get it done while you have lots of time available before the date. I have a mild dislike when people call the day before a boogie wanting their reserve done. Who wants to spend an anxious morning convincing someone their reserve is good for another day when you could be out planning your jumps? Functionally the 181st day will make a lick of difference but we've all got rules to follow. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #7 February 13, 2009 QuoteI'd say get it done while you have lots of time available before the date. I have a mild dislike when people call the day before a boogie wanting their reserve done. Who wants to spend an anxious morning convincing someone their reserve is good for another day when you could be out planning your jumps? Functionally the 181st day will make a lick of difference but we've all got rules to follow. -Michael Not meaining to pick only on you, Hackish, but once again, a non-answer to a simple question. He asked how long his repack is legal. He didn't quite reveal all his needs. Another part of the problem is working a CYPRES maintenance into the mix while avoiding unnecessary down time. Anyway, the question of when the repack expires is not a new one. If the people who are doing the checking don't know the right answer, then we all bear the brunt of it. So, please, somebody tell me if my answer was right or wrong. If you think the answer is wrong, please explain why. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #8 February 13, 2009 QuoteQuoteI'd say get it done while you have lots of time available before the date. I have a mild dislike when people call the day before a boogie wanting their reserve done. Who wants to spend an anxious morning convincing someone their reserve is good for another day when you could be out planning your jumps? Functionally the 181st day will make a lick of difference but we've all got rules to follow. -Michael Not meaining to pick only on you, Hackish, but once again, a non-answer to a simple question. He asked how long his repack is legal. He didn't quite reveal all his needs. Another part of the problem is working a CYPRES maintenance into the mix while avoiding unnecessary down time. Anyway, the question of when the repack expires is not a new one. If the people who are doing the checking don't know the right answer, then we all bear the brunt of it. So, please, somebody tell me if my answer was right or wrong. If you think the answer is wrong, please explain why. I think your answer is wrong because you need to specify the exact time of day it was packed in order to precisely determine the legality. "within 180 days" means "within 4320 hours" (by definition). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #9 February 13, 2009 Since the repack time isn't logged, I think it's safe to assume all repacks are completed at 11:59 PM. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #10 February 13, 2009 Quote I think your answer is wrong because you need to specify the exact time of day it was packed in order to precisely determine the legality. "within 180 days" means "within 4320 hours" (by definition). First off, thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate that you are willing to put some thought into the question, and post it for all to see. For your reference, FAR 105.43 contains: (b) The reserve parachute must have been packed by a certificated parachute rigger— (1) Within 180 days before the date of its use, if its canopy, shroud, and harness are composed ... I don't see where the time of the repack is relevant. The requirement is that the repack is "within 180 days before the date of its use". It doesn't say "within 180 days before the time of its use". The requirement is bound to dates, not to times within a date. So, we're back to the question, "Is yesterday 1 day before the date of its use"? If yesterday is "1 day before the date of its use", then it is an easy thing to count back to the 180th day before the date of its use. The repack must have been done on or after that day. Using the concrete example from the OP, he wants to use the rig on 25 May 2009. If you count back 180 days from there, with 24 May 2009 being "day 1" of that counting, you get to 26 Nov 2008. If the rig was packed on or after 26 Nov 2008, it is legal to jump that rig on 25 May 2009. Do you agree? If not, which is the last legal day to jump the rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,460 #11 February 13, 2009 QuoteMy understanding is that if your rig was inspected and repacked on 26 Nov 2008, you are allowed to jump it up to and including 25 May 2009. Some might not agree with the way I interpret the regulation and/or count the days. Your later post about 1 day past yesterday makes perfect sense to me. But I'm not the one doing the gearcheck. If manifest at the event the OP wants to jump at doesn't agree, then he may have a problem. Most places won't be willing to argue."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #12 February 13, 2009 QuoteQuote I think your answer is wrong because you need to specify the exact time of day it was packed in order to precisely determine the legality. "within 180 days" means "within 4320 hours" (by definition). First off, thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate that you are willing to put some thought into the question, and post it for all to see. For your reference, FAR 105.43 contains: (b) The reserve parachute must have been packed by a certificated parachute rigger— (1) Within 180 days before the date of its use, if its canopy, shroud, and harness are composed ... I don't see where the time of the repack is relevant. The requirement is that the repack is "within 180 days before the date of its use". It doesn't say "within 180 days before the time of its use". The requirement is bound to dates, not to times within a date. So, we're back to the question, "Is yesterday 1 day before the date of its use"? If yesterday is "1 day before the date of its use", then it is an easy thing to count back to the 180th day before the date of its use. The repack must have been done on or after that day. Using the concrete example from the OP, he wants to use the rig on 25 May 2009. If you count back 180 days from there, with 24 May 2009 being "day 1" of that counting, you get to 26 Nov 2008. If the rig was packed on or after 26 Nov 2008, it is legal to jump that rig on 25 May 2009. Do you agree? If not, which is the last legal day to jump the rig. I think that it would *definitely* be legal to jump it on the 24th. Whether or not it is legal to jump it on the 25th is going to depend on how good a lawyer is at confusing a jury. Some lawyers are pretty good and some juries are pretty stupid ;-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #13 February 13, 2009 Quote I'd say get it done while you have lots of time available before the date. I have a mild dislike when people call the day before a boogie wanting their reserve done. Who wants to spend an anxious morning convincing someone their reserve is good for another day when you could be out planning your jumps? Functionally the 181st day will make a lick of difference but we've all got rules to follow. -Michael +100%......My repack was not due untill i came back from Belize! But should I try and get a few extra days/weeks out of it? NO I dont need to try and save $3-$7 to not have my researve repacked before i came backNothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #14 February 14, 2009 Quote I think that it would *definitely* be legal to jump it on the 24th. Whether or not it is legal to jump it on the 25th is going to depend on how good a lawyer is at confusing a jury. Some lawyers are pretty good and some juries are pretty stupid ;-) I'm not sure I understand your point here. We both agree that it would absolutely be legal to jump that rig on the 24th. Are you saying that it is not legal on the 25th, but that you think a confused jury might think it is? Please explain that, and explain how the written law leads you to think this. I have tried to explain as clearly why I believe it is legal on the 25th. If you don't agree, please tell me which part of what I said is in error. You said it is tied to the time of the repack, and I responded by showing why the time of the repack is not relevant. Do you have some other objection? The law is pretty clear, you follow the written law and you get an answer. If you mean to say that it is not legal to jump on the 25th, please explain how you came to that conclusion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #15 February 14, 2009 Quote Quote I'd say get it done while you have lots of time available before the date. I have a mild dislike when people call the day before a boogie wanting their reserve done. Who wants to spend an anxious morning convincing someone their reserve is good for another day when you could be out planning your jumps? Functionally the 181st day will make a lick of difference but we've all got rules to follow. -Michael +100%......My repack was not due untill i came back from Belize! But should I try and get a few extra days/weeks out of it? NO I dont need to try and save $3-$7 to not have my researve repacked before i came back I'm not arguing with your practical approach to the problem. It is absolutely true that not everybody understands what the law says, and that sometimes people who don't understand can keep you from jumping. But that does not change the fact that there actually is a day that is the last legal day. As a rigger, I want to know what that day is, so that when my customer asks me, I can give him an answer. I don't want to say it is somewhere around a particular date. I want to tell him which date it is. Again, I don't at all disagree with the practical notion that an early repack might avoid a hassle. But I still want to know the correct answer. Don't you want and expect your rigger to know too? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #16 February 14, 2009 Think of a julian calendar: Nov 26, 2008 = Day 1 May 25, 2009 = Day 180 A rig packed Nov 26, 2008 is good to jump on May 25, 2009. May 25 is the last day it is legal to jump on the 180 day standard."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #17 February 14, 2009 Quote Think of a julian calendar: Nov 26, 2008 = Day 1 May 25, 2009 = Day 180 A rig packed Nov 26, 2008 is good to jump on May 25, 2009. May 25 is the last day it is legal to jump on the 180 day standard. Check your calendar. If 26 Nov 2008 is day 1, 25 May 2009 is day 181. If day 1 is 26 Nov 2008 there are: 5 days (including day 1) in November, 31 days in December 31 days in January 28 days in February 31 days in March 30 days in April 25 days in May (to 25 May 2009) 181 days total Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,311 #18 February 14, 2009 I think the question needs to be asked of whoever is going to do the gear checking at the event. Unless Remi can bring all this discussion and its conclusion to them, and have them actually believe it, what is decided here is kind of moot. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #19 February 14, 2009 QuoteI think the question needs to be asked of whoever is going to do the gear checking at the event. Unless Remi can bring all this discussion and its conclusion to them, and have them actually believe it, what is decided here is kind of moot. Wendy W. As I said before, I am not arguing with the practical notion that an early repack can help avoid certain problems. Neither am I arguing that people who don't understand can keep you from jumping. But we have no hope of making things better if we don't try to understand the law ourselves. This is not, as someone claimed, a tough problem. This law is really quite clear compared to some of the others that govern us. There is a correct answer that can be reached by carefully reading and applying the law. If we don't take the time to know what the answer is, who is to blame that the problem persists. I have presented my method and reasoning for applying the law. That results in a clear answer. There was one argument that said that we must know the time of the repack to answer the question, and I showed that there is nothing in the law that supports that notion. Wendy, you are a rigger. Don't you want to know what the right answer is? I hope you are not really trying to tell me that we are not intelligent enough to interpret this law. Are you? If someone comes to you and asks "when is another repack needed to keep jumping the rig?", what do you tell them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #20 February 14, 2009 A six is easy to make into an 8, problem solved.... you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #21 February 14, 2009 Quote Quote I think that it would *definitely* be legal to jump it on the 24th. Whether or not it is legal to jump it on the 25th is going to depend on how good a lawyer is at confusing a jury. Some lawyers are pretty good and some juries are pretty stupid ;-) I'm not sure I understand your point here. We both agree that it would absolutely be legal to jump that rig on the 24th. Are you saying that it is not legal on the 25th, but that you think a confused jury might think it is? Please explain that, and explain how the written law leads you to think this. No ... I am saying that regardless what you or I think is legal, there are people who might be convinced that it is not legal to jump the rig on the 25th. Quote I have tried to explain as clearly why I believe it is legal on the 25th. If you don't agree, please tell me which part of what I said is in error. The error in your thinking is that you think it matters whether you or I think it is legal on the 25th. What really matters is whether THE FAA thinks it's legal. Why take the risk of having to present this argument to the FAA inspector who asks to see your data card as you are boarding the plane on the last day of the boggie? At that point it wouldn't matter if you are right and the FAA guy is wrong. You'll have a lot of pissed off skydivers in line behind you Quote The law is pretty clear, you follow the written law and you get an answer. If you mean to say that it is not legal to jump on the 25th, please explain how you came to that conclusion. The law might be clear to you, but if you try to get on the plane on the 25th, I wouldn't be surprised if an FAA guy also thought it was pretty clear to HIM and he disagreed with you and caused the flight line to come to a halt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #22 February 14, 2009 What I am getting from your post is that you think it is not possible to get a clear answer from anyone, and in the absence of a clear answer, you don't want to risk it. That being the case, I still think we should try to get a clear answer from the FAA. As we speak, there are people working on a new revision of AC-105. This would be a great place to ask and answer that question. I'll ask them if they can get something in there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #23 February 14, 2009 Quote What I am getting from your post is that you think it is not possible to get a clear answer from anyone, and in the absence of a clear answer, you don't want to risk it. That being the case, I still think we should try to get a clear answer from the FAA. As we speak, there are people working on a new revision of AC-105. This would be a great place to ask and answer that question. I'll ask them if they can get something in there. It would be nice to get a clear answer from the FAA, but as other have indicated, just get a repack a couple of weeks in advance, or as Stratostar said, it's way easier to change a six to an eight and nobody would even notice it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,720 #24 February 14, 2009 >If you are using the parachute today, then "yesterday" is "1 day before >the date of its use". Agreed. But yesterday may not be _within_ 1 day before the date of its use. The semantic argument someone could make is that a rig packed at 6am on Monday, and used at noon on Tuesday, has not been repacked within 1 day before the date of its use. There is, however, no question that a rig packed on Monday has been repacked within 1 day before the date of its use if it is jumped on Monday. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #25 February 14, 2009 Quote Quote Think of a julian calendar: Nov 26, 2008 = Day 1 May 25, 2009 = Day 180 A rig packed Nov 26, 2008 is good to jump on May 25, 2009. May 25 is the last day it is legal to jump on the 180 day standard. Check your calendar. If 26 Nov 2008 is day 1, 25 May 2009 is day 181. If day 1 is 26 Nov 2008 there are: 5 days (including day 1) in November, 31 days in December 31 days in January 28 days in February 31 days in March 30 days in April 25 days in May (to 25 May 2009) 181 days total You're right, I didn't actually check my calender. My mistake.The julian calendar is the correct method to identify the last legal date for a rig. In this situation it's May 24, 2009."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites