Pilot Chute hesitation & dumb luck

[danielcroft 2]

I know I'm going to get kicked in the nuts after posting this but I hope it'll help someone think a bit more about the possibilities.

I've been jumping at Spectre 190 up until this weekend when I switched over to a Sabre 2 190. They're both a tight squeeze into the rig I'm using (Infinity) but I've been told by several people that it's fine to jump. My packer (also a certified rigger) tightened up my closing loop because it was pretty loose. Supposedly the pack volume of the Sabre 2 is less than the Spectre (416 - 475) but the shape is what makes the difference apparently. I'm using a packer because I'm in a rookie 4 way team and we'd get 1 jump a weekend if I packed it myself.

Anyway, 4th jump of the day with this setup. We break at 5, track & pull at 4 only nothing happens. Pilot chute was definitely cocked, I did it myself. Came out of the BOC no problem but just sits there.

It's at this point that my inner idiot takes over and I go blank for a second & then start fumbling for my reserve. I thought to go straight to my reserve because my head was fucked not because I had planned to do that (as opposed to cutting first). I think my thought process was something along the lines of "oh shit, PCIT, now what the fuck do I do, um... um... I don't have time for this fucking around - go to reserve". As I was fumbling around for my reserve I was reaching over with my right hand as well as my left I must have got enough air on the PC to get the pin out. I was under my main at about 2k. Flew my pattern & landed.

There's so much wrong with this scenario, chief among these is my inability to act decisively. The first time I've been really freaked out by something I've done (or haven't done as the case may be).

I talked to my wife (she's a coach), talked to a couple of friends (D lic or better) and talked to my instructor. Spoke with my packer who loosened the closing loop a little bit.

I'm going to adjust my EP practice to include looking over my shoulder (was in FJC) to remind myself to do this.

I've jumped the rig 3 times since then. I stopped jumping in the 4 way team for the first jump after & pulled high. Went out the door with my eyes closed (deliberately!) and unstable. I jumped the final round with my team & then one solo on Sunday & started feeling a little better.

I'd appreciate any suggestions of course and expect some nice sharp shots to the groin region. It wouldn't be dz.com without them now would it?

[councilman24 36]

Review you PC throw technique. Over the years at various times I've found myself becoming complacent about how I throw my PC. I seen others, as well as myself, become satisfied with getting it out of the pouch. Make sure your extracting it, and throwing it! Or at least getting it out to arms length aggressively. You are near the stage where I've seen this happen. It also has kind of happened to me this year.

So check that out.

FWIW my procedure for a PC in tow IS that isn't leaving is to pull my reserve and deal with two out later if I have to. It saved my life once. But, cutting away is also an acceptable procedure. But, you do need to make the decision on the ground (you have) and do it in the air (oops) And yes, looking back to check is always important. If your D bag was bouncing around you back (the container opening) then you procedure may differ. At least mine would.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[bigorangemd 0]

Another possibility is that it was not a tight closing loop but a weak PC throw that allowed it to get stuck in the burble behind your back. When you reached for the reserve handle your position may have changed allowing it to clear. At the altitude you pulled you had time to deal with the situation and handled it fine. Differing views on whether to cut away given that situation. A similar situation happened to me after a weak throw, nothing happened, butt puckered, grabbed pillows, and felt the bag come off my back. Discus this possiblity with those around you and see what they think.

[danielcroft 2]

Thank you both.

It may well have been the combination of a lazy throw & a tight closing loop. There's the possibility I have an exceptional arch but I strongly doubt that.

My instructor and friends offered me some good advice and I've definitely learned a lot. Probably complacency combined with some (mild) gear issues would be the cause.

I kind of think I'm doing a little too much with the 4 way team actually, a bit too much on my mind given my low numbers.

[skybytch 259]

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"oh shit, PCIT, now what the fuck do I do, um... um... I don't have time for this fucking around - go to reserve".

Looks to me like you did it right. When in doubt, whip it out.

You're alive. Quit kicking yourself.

[danielcroft 2]

Thanks. I'm a kick the shit out of myself kind of guy unfortunately.

I think the choice to go straight to reserve would have been better if I'd actually managed to find my handle & pull it.

The alive bit is good though I must admit.

That was one of the pieces of advice I got - I lived to fight another day and learned a lesson that's killed people before. Can't say that's a bad thing.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I've been jumping at Spectre 190 up until this weekend when I switched over to a Sabre 2 190. They're both a tight squeeze into the rig I'm using (Infinity) but I've been told by several people that it's fine to jump. My packer (also a certified rigger) tightened up my closing loop because it was pretty loose. Supposedly the pack volume of the Sabre 2 is less than the Spectre (416 - 475) but the shape is what makes the difference apparently.

Anyone else have a similar experience converting to a 9 cell at the same size? I'd expect it to be bigger, and wider. But if you had to tighten the loop, does suggest smaller, or at least not so deep.

(Interested as my 7 cell 210 might get replaced by a 9 cell if I see a nice deal, either at the 210 or 190 size depending on my weight)

[jimmytavino 16]

"pilot chute was definitely cocked, did it myself.."


could be... BEFORE the pack job....
BUT a P C can "uncock " itself, real easily during the course of being stuffed in the bag..

the important thing to check , would have been that the P C was still cocked, after the pack job was complete...

i don't avail myself of the services of a packer, too often, BUT whenever i do, i always check the pC window Before donning the gear...(in fact i check that, even when I did the pack job....) it's a good habit to get into...

that kill line can and DOES slide , quite a bit, between when a jumper first sets it. and when a packer is done bagging it...

a visual check is crucial after retrieving your rig from the packing area....
Always be sure that you see color in the PC window.
right???

jmy

[danielcroft 2]

A friend of mine informed me of this, no it wasn't something I was aware of but I can certainly check it from now on. Thanks for mentioning that.

I have a lot to learn about just about everything in skydiving and I'm learning every day. I'd like it if these learning experiences didn't coincide with nearly getting killed but that's skydiving.

Kelpdiver - check paragear.com for volumes. The shape of the Spectre & Sabre 2 are definitely different but paragear says the pack sizes for both and that's where I got my numbers. My packer has packed both and says the Sabre 2 is smaller but the dimensions are different like you said.

I'm planning on starting packing again this weekend but now I'm concerned due to the state of the gear. Someone said I'd keep making excuses, I hope this isn't another because I actually want to be packing for myself.

[monkycndo 0]

After being shown by Brian Germain how to pack a PC, I only use his method. It does two things at once. It will greatly reduce/eliminate your chance of having a horseshoe malfunction if your main pin gets popped with PC still in the BOC & his method can not be done if the PC is not cocked. I have to admit, it has helped me once to catch when I got distracted mid packjob and forgot to cock the PC.

Here is a link to his video instruction and photos.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[jurgencamps 0]

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... who loosened the closing loop a little bit.

The PCIT is not a result of the loop being to tight.

[popsjumper 2]

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... who loosened the closing loop a little bit.

The PCIT is not a result of the loop being to tight.

Excuse me? That CAN be one reason for a PCIT. If you are thinking of a PC hesitation, then yes, you are correct. WTF does a closing loop have to do with a PC hesitation?

What I'm confused with is the OP...just what the heck really happened?

What I got was:
He had a PC hesitation and it cleared off his back when he reached for the reserve handle. Did it then become a PCIT? It must have or they would not have been screwing around with the main closing loop.

Are some of you guys confusing one with the other?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dharma1976 0]

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Excuse me? That CAN be one reason for a PCIT. If you are thinking of a PC hesitation, then yes, you are correct. WTF does a closing loop have to do with a PC hesitation?

What I'm confused with is the OP...just what the heck really happened?

What I got was:
He had a PC hesitation and it cleared off his back when he reached for the reserve handle. Did it then become a PCIT? It must have or they would not have been screwing around with the main closing loop.

Are some of you guys confusing one with the other?

you got this correct as I have been discussing this with him, I gave him some things to add to his EP practices which involve adding a shit I dont have anything out look over one shoulder and then EPs

D

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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I'm going to adjust my EP practice to include looking over my shoulder (was in FJC) to remind myself to do this.

First off, good job. There are lessons to be learned here, but hey, you made it to the ground safely. That counts for more than a lot (and allows you to learn from it).

One thing re: what you said above - I know you said you'd make that adjustment to your EP's, but just wanted to be sure you don't add it to your normal deployment procedures as well.

In my FJC (ripcord-based, spring-loaded PC student gear), the procedure we were taught was WAVE - PULL - ARCH - ONE - TWO - CHECK - CHECK. Works great for a setup like that and a big Navigator canopy, but if you do that with a Sabre2-190 - even loaded at 1:1 - you could induce line twists, or an off-heading opening.

Like I said, sounds like you plan on checking over the shoulder only when there's a potential issue - just wanted to be sure you were aware.

Signatures are the new black.

[danielcroft 2]

Thanks again for your help Dave.

Here's what may have been the chain of events:
Weak throw
PC in burble with very tight container = hesitation
Fumble around like an idiot for a bit
Reach both hands for Reserve handle
PC catches wind
Normal deployment

The theory is that, with a weak throw, an ok arch & a tight container + closing loop, I ended up with PC hesitation. Once I got enough wind on the PC, deployment of the main proceeded as normal. The closing loop was adjusted to allow a little more space in the container (or so I've been told) to lower the chances of locking the dbag in.

I've been practicing my EPs (around the house, would look odd if my wife didn't skydive too) with the addition of a look over the shoulder (Dave suggested & FJC said this too) before I go to chop.

I don't really know how PC hesitation & PCIT are differentiated. My understanding was that a PCIT was more like the PC not being cocked & would never work (or a knot around it or something) whereas the PCH was something preventing the working PC from deploying the main (burble). One is possibly fixable without a chop, the other isn't.

Does that sum it up or am I misunderstanding?

[danielcroft 2]

I didn't realize that might cause an off heading. I've been getting that a bit since I switched to the Sabre 2. I think it's human nature to presume there's some external force causing these issues when in fact it's the meat piñata at the end of the lines doing it.

Right now, after my main's out of the bag & opening, I'm grabbing my risers (thumbs up - I've been told that's better than thumbs down) and watching my opening. I've noticed the canopy hunting & then usually, right at the end I go off heading.

Something I'm doing?

[Rover 9]

If the kill line in the pc is spectre - which it probably is - check the pc to see if it has shrunk, as spectre shrinks due to the heat of friction. This can lead to the apex of the pc being pulled in, lessening the effectiveness of the pc.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[robblack31 0]

You want to hear some real dumb luck? I was helping a newb close his container when I found out how loose his closing pin was. I told him that we need to tighten that up. I then asked if he had cocked his pilot chute and he just looked at me with curiosity. He had jumped this loose pin/no cocked pilot chute set up for about 30 jumps without incident. Amazing!

[danielcroft 2]

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You want to hear some real dumb luck? I was helping a newb close his container when I found out how loose his closing pin was. I told him that we need to tighten that up. I then asked if he had cocked his pilot chute and he just looked at me with curiosity. He had jumped this loose pin/no cocked pilot chute set up for about 30 jumps without incident. Amazing!

That emoticon doesn't even come close! So glad you found that & he's ok.

[popsjumper 2]

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Here's what may have been the chain of events:
Weak throw
PC in burble with very tight container = hesitation
Fumble around like an idiot for a bit
Reach both hands for Reserve handle
PC catches wind
Normal deployment

The theory is that, with a weak throw, an ok arch & a tight container + closing loop, I ended up with PC hesitation. Once I got enough wind on the PC, deployment of the main proceeded as normal.

That describes a true PC Hesitation.

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The closing loop was adjusted to allow a little more space in the container (or so I've been told) to lower the chances of locking the dbag in.

Again...the closing loop and pin have nothing to do with a PC Hesitation. Loosening the closing loop to "lower the chances of locking the dbag in" is NOT a good idea. Loose closing loops have caused waaay too many incidents. Ask your people to tell you about premature deployments, pins popping on aircraft, or on climbout.

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I don't really know how PC hesitation & PCIT are differentiated.

Simplified version:
PC Hesitation = PC in burble
- typically caused by a weak throw. Closing pin and loop have nothing to do with this nuisance.

PCIT = PC at full extension and not pulling the pin
- typically caused by misrouted bridal or tight closing loop or a bent pin or even a pin caught in the inspection window of a collapsible PC.

Please go back and review ALL your potential malfunctions and nuisances until you know them ALL like the back of your hand and learn how to handle ALL of them. Then practice, practice, practice.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

AND...

I have another question.
Since somebody has misled you about PC hesitation and closing loops and you are talking about pack volumes, it appears that maybe your container is not designed for the pack volumes you describe.

What Infinity container are you talking about anyway. Have you checked that the manufacturer's specs include the pack volumes you are talking about? Are you jumping a smaller Infinity and trying to stuff a 190 into it?

There are only two sizes that support a 190 main with the 160 reserve you have. You really should be flying a larger reserve, IMHO.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jurgencamps 0]

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PCIT = PC at full extension and not pulling the pin
- typically caused by ... or tight closing loop ...

?????

I remember reading an article (before 2000) about pull forces created by a PC and the forces needed to pull the pin.
Even with a very very tight closing loop (without using an "aid"device to close the container), the max force to pull the pin is never bigger than 10 pound (if I remember correctly).
The pull forces created by the PC are much greater (35 or 80 pound?).

I believe that Bill Booth wrote the article or was at least quoted in that article.
Does anybody remember this article?

[popsjumper 2]

It has happened...more than once.
Maybe I should have said the obvious..."too tight".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Genn 0]

I have had a PCIT from a closing loop being too tight on a CRW jump.

It took two good tugs on the bridle to get the fucker out. Tail pocket, mesh slider, no bag... I knew going to my reserve would give me 2 out and taking my setup to terminal could seriously injure or kill me. Good ol- 1, 2, Fuck you!

I saw stars, had the other 3 stacked under me screaming "GO!- You don't have a PCIT anymore!"...So, I shook it off and went.

Landed, adjusted the length on my closing loop, and had an uneventful next jump.

[SPAWNmaster 0]

Quote

Quote

PCIT = PC at full extension and not pulling the pin
- typically caused by ... or tight closing loop ...

?????

I remember reading an article (before 2000) about pull forces created by a PC and the forces needed to pull the pin.
Even with a very very tight closing loop (without using an "aid"device to close the container), the max force to pull the pin is never bigger than 10 pound (if I remember correctly).
The pull forces created by the PC are much greater (35 or 80 pound?).

I believe that Bill Booth wrote the article or was at least quoted in that article.
Does anybody remember this article?

80lb.

the way i look at it, if you can get the pin in with less than 80lbs of holding force on the closing loop, the container will open.

remember that the pin is in perpendicular to the holding force of the loop itself. when the PC inflates it's pulling the pin up and out rather than just pulling it out the side.

that said, if you can pull your closing loop out enough to get the pin in, the PC itself can do the same (unless there's 80lbs or more of holding on force on the closing loop).

i am not a rigger.
my 2cts.