regulator 0 #1 January 29, 2009 I am now ordering my new rig. The Infinity container I am ordering comes with the standard RSL setup. However, now Javelin rigs come with the Skyhook RSL as well as mirage rigs as well. Is there a vast difference between the skyhook and a standard RSL. I mean doesnt an rsl simply use your main as a large pilot chute to easily deploy your reserve. And if there is a massive difference between a standard RSL and a skyhook, why wont more manufacturers jump on the bandwagon? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 January 29, 2009 Heavily debated more than a few times. This was found by using "skyhook vs rsl" in the search function: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1589800;search_string=skyhook%20vs%20rsl;#1589800--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #3 January 29, 2009 RSL -- main pulls reserve pin. Skyhook -- -main acts as large pilot chute to help deploy reserve very quickly. Why not Skyhook on all rigs? As I understand it UPT is licensing the technology ---$$$$$. Also, as I understand it implementing Skyhook is such a big modification that there is TSO type testing involved (both $$$ and TIME). The Mirage Main Assisted Reserve Deployment product is a competing product to the Skyhook.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
regulator 0 #4 January 29, 2009 Thanks for the assistance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #5 January 29, 2009 Because there are problems. Complicate any system and you increase the chances of failure.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,051 #6 January 29, 2009 If there were no RSL or SkyHook available at all and all you could use were your own EP's; which rig would you order?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,047 #7 January 30, 2009 Hi GLIDE, QuoteAlso, as I understand it implementing Skyhook is such a big modification that there is TSO type testing involved (both $$$ and TIME). I believe that you are understanding wrong. Do a SEARCH for more info on this, JerryBaumchen PS) The contract that a mfr must sign to license the Skyhook details out the testing that the patent holder requires. Not the FAA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #8 January 30, 2009 QuoteHeavily debated more than a few times. This was found by using "skyhook vs rsl" in the search function: Come on Dave, does the fact that this topic has been heavily debated invalidate a question from someone with 27 jumps and a new A license who wants to buy his first rig ? You're one of the longtime posters here - and so is Jerry - and I hold you both ih the highest regard. But seriously, you wouldn't answer a student like this would you ? "Do a search". I just don't think it's an appropriate response. This is a live forum and we continue to get a barrage of the same questions from newbies. and let's hope we always do, because if the newbs dry up the sport and these forums will both die. Unless we just want to put the Gear & Rigging and Safety & Training threads on locked down auto pilot "do a search" mode. Those of us who feel irritated with these questions have the freedom to simply pass them by. Nobody is making us answer any of these posts. Also, relevant to the OPs question, Jerry B was recently kind enough to lend me a demo model of his RAX system, which I had the chance to fool around with for a couple weeks. It's a really simple and slick design - elegant is the word I'd like to use. It answered a lot of my questions about how these things work. Back in the seventies the really HUGE gear revolution began. We moved from round canopies and gut mounted reserves to piggybacks with squares and even square reserves. From ripcord deployed mains to hand deploy. From shot and a half Capewells to 3 Rings. From boots to sneakers. The advances were tremendous. But along the way there were too many weird systems that all seemed like a good idea at the time, and some of them actually killed a few people or came damn close. So if there's a lesson from the Great Leap Forward of the seventies, it's to innovate boldly - but carefully. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,047 #9 January 30, 2009 Hi Tom, Well put, we do need to assist the new folks all we can. However, my 'do a search' was directed at GLIDEANGLE and not the OP. GLIDEANGLE has been here ( this site ) for quite some time. And my comment to him ( poorly written now that I look at it ) was as regards the TSO certification of these devices. I try my best to never be negative about anything on this site but I learned a long time ago that I am not perfect. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
regulator 0 #10 January 30, 2009 Probably the same rig because ultimately it is up to the individual because we have to execute our emergency procedures to counteract malfunctions. I know that I would prefer a RSL because last year I had my 1st cutaway. I had a suspension line wrapped around the top of the canopy and it induced a hard left turn before I released the brakes. Naturally I checked my altitrack and I was at 3,500 feet and I decided I should chop it before I lost any more altitude. So I cut away and before I could get my hands around the reserve handle (even though I was looking right at it...the RSL kicked in my reserve and when I checked my altimeter a few seconds later I was at 2,450 (approx). I know this did save valuable seconds if I had decided to be a dumbass and wait longer. But if necessary I would have pulled the silver handle. I know I dont have high jump numbers but once I get my own rig I plan on blasting the number 27 out of the park and one day I'd love to be sitting on 2700 but for now I have to deal with always being called a noob because of my numbers. I have no thoughts of advancing myself too fast, or downsizing at a fast rate. I just wanna jump and eventually learn how to freefly and pilot a wingsuit. I know that we as jumpers are ultimately responsible for saving ourselves so if there is a piece of gear that could assist in that I think money is a small price to pay for being around another day to jump again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
humanflite 0 #11 January 30, 2009 QuoteRSL -- main pulls reserve pin. Skyhook -- -main acts as large pilot chute to help deploy reserve very quickly. Why not Skyhook on all rigs? As I understand it UPT is licensing the technology ---$$$$$. Also, as I understand it implementing Skyhook is such a big modification that there is TSO type testing involved (both $$$ and TIME). The Mirage Main Assisted Reserve Deployment product is a competing product to the Skyhook. So does that mean on a new G3 that the its not possible to get a Skyhook? but instead you can add Mirages own system? Anyone know the tech info on this system and if its very similar in operation to the skyhook then isnt that a copied design? (Im thinking breach of patent...IF the skyhook is patented which I would hope it is...though I realise its very costly to do this) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slurp56 0 #12 January 30, 2009 Quote Anyone know the tech info on this system and if its very similar in operation to the skyhook then isnt that a copied design? (Im thinking breach of patent...IF the skyhook is patented which I would hope it is...though I realise its very costly to do this) Whoa... Hold up. I'm not partial towards either manufacturer in question, but you really need to stop and educate yourself on both systems before speculating any further. Let me put it this way. When the time comes for Mirage to make available their version, and you still feel that it is a copy of the skyhook, then you can safely say the skyhook is a copy of any of a number of other designs currently out there.________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,047 #13 January 30, 2009 Hi human, I'm going to try to give some answers without ( hopefully ) stepping on anyone's toes. The Mirage DRX system ( IMO ) is a reworked version of the Eric Fradet/French design. I have some photos of some of their early R&D on this system. But I have not seen their finished (?) version. In the past Eric has kept me informed on his working with them on thier system. But I have not heard anything new in a long time. From what I know (?) the DRX will not infringe upon the Skyhook patent. Also, from what I know (?) none of the 'other' designs infringe upon that patent. HTH, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BUBLHED 0 #14 January 31, 2009 Jerry isn't the Mirage Drx system in its most basic sense a skyhook minus the Collins lanyard? Drx = RSL with bridle attachment to use the main as pilotchute. Skyhook= RSL + Collins lanyard with a bridle attachment to use main as a pilotchute.ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slurp56 0 #15 January 31, 2009 QuoteJerry isn't the Mirage Drx system in its most basic sense a skyhook minus the Collins lanyard? Drx = RSL with bridle attachment to use the main as pilotchute. Skyhook= RSL + Collins lanyard with a bridle attachment to use main as a pilotchute. I wouldn't call the DRX a Skyhook. That is in comparison, saying a ford taurus is the same thing as a toyota corolla (yes, both are cars). The DRX and Skyhook are both Main Assisted Reserve Deployment (M.A.R.D.) devices but they accomplish the same task by different means, even though they operate similar in comparison. A look at both systems indicate they are mechanically different. Yes, the Collins lanyard is a Skyhook System only feature, and last I heard, UPT was not interested in licensing it separate from the skyhook, for whatever reason.________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BUBLHED 0 #16 January 31, 2009 that's why I said in its most basic sense. As in, in its most basic sense a taures and a corolla are both cars that get you from point a to point b. As I understand UPT can't liscense the Collins lanyard as it is not there's to liscense. They are recieving liscense to incorperate it into there MARD system. I do think that these systems are worth the investment. Yes anything can happen and anything can and will malfunction, but overall I feel that the benefits of a RSL especially a MARD system are far greater than the risks. ( unless doing Crew or Camera)ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #17 January 31, 2009 QuoteIf there were no RSL or SkyHook available at all and all you could use were your own EP's; which rig would you order? I would still order a Vector. More because of brand loyalty than anything else."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slurp56 0 #18 January 31, 2009 Quote As I understand UPT can't liscense the Collins lanyard as it is not there's to liscense. They are recieving liscense to incorperate it into there MARD system. You could very well be right. I wouldn't consider myself terribly technical or legal saavy, but after a quick google, what *appears* to be the patent for the collins lanyard has Booth's name on it. http://www.google.com/patents?id=uj0DAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=Skyhook+parachute#PPA1,M1 again, I'm not sure how all this stuff works, so I could very well be wrong. Quote I do think that these systems are worth the investment. [....] but overall I feel that the benefits of a RSL especially a MARD system are far greater than the risks. I agree with you completely. Using a full or partially inflated main to quickly deploy the reserve is a fantastic idea. The race is on to see who can come up with the most elegant, reliable solution that doesnt require modification of your emergency procedures.________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #19 January 31, 2009 QuoteThe race is on to see who can come up with the most elegant, reliable solution that doesnt require modification of your emergency procedures. I haven't seen the Mirage DRX yet but I have a Skyhook and know that it doesn't require any modification of EPs. There's no race.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #20 January 31, 2009 Quote Quote The race is on to see who can come up with the most elegant, reliable solution that doesnt require modification of your emergency procedures. I haven't seen the Mirage DRX yet but I have a Skyhook and know that it doesn't require any modification of EPs. There's no race. You should read this: http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=160. In particular this part: Quote 2. If the AAD fire happens after opening shock, then the bag should not fall out of the container, and depending on the size and speed of the inflated main, the reserve pilot chute should tow about 5 feet behind the jumper, still connected to the Skyhook. This is because the airspeed at pilot chute inflation was so low that the red seal thread on the Skyhook did not break. This is a more or less stable situation, but you should gain control of the trailing reserve pilot chute before releasing you brakes. With the pilot chute trailing just 5 feet behind you ( instead of the usual 12-18 feet) it is easier to "reel in", and there is less likelihood of its generating enough drag to pull the reserve bag out of the container causing a two- out situation. In this scenario the Skyhook actually makes a two-out less likely. So basically, if you found yourself open low enough to scare your AAD, you now have roughly 30 seconds (depending on wing loading and canopy, etc.) to reach behind you, reel in and control your reserve PC, get in control of your main, and find a place to land. The Skyhook is the only device that I know of (at this time) that makes this scenario possible. A standard RSL will not affect the deployment of the reserve in a low pull/AAD fire scenario, and you will have a two out situation which is generally stable (http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf). I know a few people that have cut their main away from this situation and simply landed their reserve. Whether the reserve comes out of the bag or not, you're paying for a new cutter and a repack Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divnswoop 0 #21 January 31, 2009 That is why if you choose to jump an AAD, you need to have an ample amount of "cushion" between your main opening and the AAD activation altitude. If you bust your hard deck on your min. main container opening, you go straight to the reserve. We can sit and blame devices all day. With this mentality I say we blame the Cypres cause if it didn't fire none of this would have happened.....(regarding the UPT link above) He allowed himself get below the min container opening. Then broke emergency proceedures and still deployed his main. At that point, you better be very familiar with your gear to handle the situation. I am sorry to see it happen but the core issue needs to be addressed. Altitude awareness and EP's of the jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #22 February 1, 2009 Quote We can sit and blame devices all day. With this mentality I say we blame the Cypres cause if it didn't fire none of this would have happened.....(regarding the UPT link above) He allowed himself get below the min container opening. Then broke emergency proceedures and still deployed his main. At that point, you better be very familiar with your gear to handle the situation. I am sorry to see it happen but the core issue needs to be addressed. Altitude awareness and EP's of the jumper. I'm not placing blame, I'm trying to EDUCATE someone about their gear and the fact that it isn't always "business as usual" when you opt for some new feature. You're right- altitude awareness and EP's can prevent that type of scenario, but if everyone were perfect, we wouldn't need RSL's/Skyhooks at all, and 90+% of Airtec's cutter sales wouldn't be from low pulls. People need to know what THEY need to do with THEIR gear when they find themselves in odd situations. Let's keep people safe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bill6870 3 #23 February 2, 2009 Well said. Blue Skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #24 February 2, 2009 Quote Because there are problems. Complicate any system and you increase the chances of failure. so you would rather have a hand deployed belly reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #25 February 2, 2009 No, but I would rather have a hand deploy piggy back reserve. I don't get your point.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
