For the canopy nazis!

[Deleted 0]

Hey all! I'm in an interesting discussion over on the wreak, and thought it might be interesting to you. Feel free to post any comments, and Marc, I know you're here too....
Here's the link. I'd shorten it up, but I don't know how
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=20020901234930.23146.00000063%40mb-fp.aol.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.skydiving

[skybytch 262]

Tired of arguing with Snuffy already?

Okay, here I go. Just remember, you asked for it.

Here is what PD says about the recommended suspended weights for the Sabre. In case you don't want to click the link, here's what they say about the Sabre 135...
minimum weight - VLC(varies with landing conditions)
students - N/R (not recommended)
novice - 115
intermediate - 128
advanced - 135
expert - 162
maximum - 203

imho, 70-odd jumps places you in the novice to intermediate areas. A 1.4 wingloading on a 135 means an exit weight of about 190 lbs, which is somewhat beyond what PD would recommend for an expert.

Other interesting reading about wingloading and smaller canopies is located here. Pay special attention to page 3.

Marc makes a good point -

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Conservative straight in final approaches work fine and dandy, until ya have an off-DZ landing, in a tight area, with unfamilair terrain, at dusk, etc. etc. etc.....

These scenarios do occur, and *when* they occur isn't the time to suddenly learn how to land a 1.4 loaded canopy in a manner which is not "conservative" or "straight in." If you're jumping a canopy at 1.4, you should, at the very least, know how to land a 1.2 canopy in a less-than-conservative,
non-straight-in fashion. IMO.

I agree with him, 100%. I don't care how good you are (or think you are), shit happens. Personally I'd rather have shit happen when I'm flying a canopy I'm 100% comfortable and confident with - a canopy that I can safely land where I want to land whether I'm going into the wind, downwind, crosswind, in no wind, uphill, downhill, in a flat turn cuz that asshole cut me off and/or after sunset. Of course it's entirely possible that I have different priorities than you do when it comes to canopy sizing... I'm in no hurry to spend another year plus out of the sport cuz shit happened.

[billvon 2,881]

It looks like it's devolving into an argument over who said what, but the basic argument seems to be what an 'appropriate' experience is to jump a given canopy. I don't use jump numbers, I use skills. If someone asks me if they are ready to downsize, I ask them if they an do the following on their present canopy:

-Can they land uphill and downhill?
-Can they land crosswind and no wind?
-Can they flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet, and 45 degrees in the flare?
-Can they land with rear risers?
-Can they reliably land standing up within a 10 meter circle?
-Can they do a steep approach?
-Can they make a single and double front riser approach to landing?
-Can they, at the very least, do no-contact CRW with someone else?

If they can do all that, they are ready to downsize. If not, they could probably use a bit more practice under their current canopy. Buying the smaller canopy before you can do all this is a mistake - are you really going to practice turning at 50 feet under a canopy that scares you a little?

[Deleted 0]

Yes, Lisa, I asked for it, and I agree with what you said.

Edited to add: Nope, I enjoy arguing with Gramps aka Snuffy!

The point I was trying to make is: Why do people tend to make assumptions on who should or should not be "allowed" to fly a particular canopy, without seeing seeing how they can actually fly a canopy? Marc's point about the less than ideal situation was a good one, I agree with that. My problem was that he posted that without asking if I had any less than ideal landings. Without asking if I had flown other wingloadings, ect. This is the reason I think generalizations based soley on jump numbers do not work. They may give a clue, but they do not come close to showing the whole picture. Everyone has a different opinion, and I value all of them. Yes, even yours, Lisa. Thank you for the input.

[Deleted 0]

Thank you for your input Bill. It's all valuable. The only thing you listed that I have not done yet is landing up and down hill. Seems like I keep finding the flat DZs.

I do like your thinking that skills are important to downsizing, not jump numbers. I fully admit that I am not ready, nor do I plan on being ready to downsize from this canopy for years, if ever. I do however believe I was ready to downsize to this canopy. My wingloading is also going to go back down on it a bit in the near future. The addition of a decent "fast" jumpsuit from Tony will allow me to remove my lead, resulting in about a 1.28 or so wingload. Don't get me wrong, I am comfortable at the 1.4, but that damn rig is soooo heavy with the lead snapped in. Once again, thanks for the answers and opinions. I'm not looking to justify what I did, what Marc said, or anything. I'm just looking at seeing what other peoples opinions are on judging who should be jumping what.

[AndyMan 7]

I always figured arguing in wreck dot was kind of like fighting a land war in asia.

Inconceivable!

That said, you probably aren't going to find anybody who doesn't know you willing to endorse what you're jumping.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Deleted 0]

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I always figured arguing in wreck dot was kind of like fighting a land war in asia.

Inconceivable!

That said, you probably aren't going to find anybody who doesn't know you willing to endorse what you're jumping.

_Am

Andy,
I'm not looking for an endorsement, just opinions. I fully understand that many believe, by my jump numbers, that I should be on a large canopy. Well, just going by jumps numbers is not enough. you need to take into account what was done on each and every canopy you have jumped.
Thank you for your input, Andy.

[DENGOPHER 0]

this should stir up some shit!!!! why are people so quick to go small??? our sport is risky as it is why make it worse???? do you want to get hurt??? i don't !!!!! so i do what i can to keep my self safe...yes every one knows i just downed sized to a saber2 170 from a 190...and i only have 115 jumps under my belt.. but before i made the switch i know i could land in all conditions.. because i practiced doing it alot!!!!! and i made an educated decision.. i consulted with the best people in the business DP..even when i demoed the 170 i made sure that i could land the thing ware i wanted to using a braked approach ect... just because you can land with a napkin over your head in normal conditions dose not mean you can make a safe landing in a tight area after a cut away.... the small canopys make for cool looking swoops but when shit gose wrong i want to KNOW that i can hit that little clear spot after i cut away and it's the only spot i could make it to...that little canopy won't make you cool or popular.. but it could get you very hurt.. so don't so quick to listen to some wanabe skygod tell you to go smaller!!!! make sure you can handle the canopy you have now... know you can!!!!!!as for me the 170 will be as small as it gets for me.... please every one use your heads out there be smart ,safe and have fun!!!!! just my 2 cents take it or leave it.just jump!!!!
gopher

[bodypilot90 0]

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The point I was trying to make is: Why do people tend to make assumptions on who should or should not be "allowed" to fly a particular canopy, without seeing seeing how they can actually fly a canopy?

because of what we have learned in the past, from 1st person or seeing friends killed because they wanted a little more speed. I for one am tired of people getting killed under good canopies. I've heard it all. Funny I've never thought landing off "boy i wish I had a canopy with 20-40 less sqr feet" What's the rush? it's not that we want to spoil any ones fun. It's that we'd like to see you jump for 20 plus years with out getting hurt

[Jimbo 0]

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The point I was trying to make is: Why do people tend to make assumptions on who should or should not be "allowed" to fly a particular canopy, without seeing seeing how they can actually fly a canopy?

Probably because history has shown us that, with a few exceptions, people with low jump numbers aren't able to handle higher wingloadings.

A Sabre 135 @ 1.4 might seem just dandy on a conservative straight in approach and any pilot might be able to sink it into a back yard. What happens when things start to go wrong? On a 135 @ 1.4 things happen quickly. Is someone with 70 jumps ready to deal with that? Is someone with 70 jumps that good?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Deleted 0]

Gopher,
What you did sounds quite close to what I did. The only difference I can see is I went even smaller, had some training, and decided it was too small, therefore went back up a bit.

If you don't mind, may I ask you something? What was your wingloading on the 190, and what is it on the 170? Just trying to get some perspective.

[rhino 0]

It isn't necessarily a race to go small..

For the people that downsize JUST to downsize, they are asking for trouble.

I went down in size looking for a certain set of flight characteristics, a certain recovery arc, flare, among other things. I found everything I was looking for..

Their was a time that I went down and then back up.. I was jumping a 150 Triathlon, moved to a 120 diablo putting 15+ jumps on it then went back to my 150 again.. I knew at that time I wasn't ready..

On the subject of jump numbers vs what loading people "should" be at..

It simply can't be done by jump numbers. It is a skill thing. A maturity thing. I don't know how to explain it. Some people mature into canopy flight rather quickly. They just tend toi "get it" sooner than others..

Is that a good practice for 90% of people? No, I don't believe so.. Just don't be quick to jump on someone with "low" jump numbers on a highly loaded canopy and think he is stupid because of it.

I enjoy the canopy I fly and the loading I am at. Frankly I don't ever see myself going below 90sqft under a canopy. My 97 will be just fine for another 1000 jumps easy.. I am in the groove, having fun, using my head and learning.. Loving every minute of it.. Flying parachutes is what I and a few other people jump for "aside from the great people".

Rhino

One more thing.. I have YET to have someone tell me or anyone I know to go smaller.. I have never experienced this..

[DENGOPHER 0]

hi iskydiveto,
i was at 1 to1 with the 190. if i did the math correctly the 170 is a 1.2 wing loading...
just jump!!!
gopher

[christoofar 0]

Since some of our resident canopy nazis are watching this thread rather closely... I'll pose a question for feedback...

I love jumping my 1.2 loaded Sabre2. Got 130-ish on me. No wind days are okay, I've noticed my accuracy improved greatly, and I nailed it at Rantoul. Practiced coming out of very sharp S-turns right onto dead center for the past month. This past weekend I also got some very good accuracy in on my ZP.

But... sometimes my mojo just isn't there and I "punch" my feet on the ground, toes sticking down to "brake." Would this be considered bad form? Sometimes I do it out of boredom (land surfing looks cool... until you hit a rock or stub your toes in a crack), other times I kick myself for realizing that I just didn't finish the flare and I just "held it" and walked off the landing without reallly landing, if you catch my drift.

I've front risered into final for the past 1/2 dozen jumps or so as well. No rear-risered landings, though (I'd like to watch my S&TA do one on my canopy first before I try). There are no slopes in the landing area at my DZ, except for one that is past the beer line and is off limits to land in because it's in the landing path of our plane. (Never jumped where it's hilly... probably need to get a PD260 if I decide to do that).

I feel confident that I could transition to something smaller this winter... and I need to since I am overstuffing my container and I would really like to get the pack volume down, yet stay semi-elliptical or switch to a fully elliptical canopy.

Do I sound like a n00b heading for instant death or a skydiver making calculated and rational decisions?

Ideas?

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[freeflydeeva 0]

If I may offer another line of thought on this. The general consensus of the skydiving community is that a skydiver with 70 jumps should be considered a novice to intermediate skydiver. Yes there are expceptions to every situation. Another opinion has to do less with jump numbers and more with skill and specific situations.

What I would like to share is my perception. When we train our bodies to do something new, especially in skydiving, we train our muscles to perform certain functions. We create muscle memory with repetition. I don't remember how many times my instructors made me repeat the pull sequence until it was ingrained in my head and within my muscles. The same is applied to formation skydiving, freeflying, landing, etc.

Yes, someone with 70 jumps may have landed in each one of the situations that billvon outlined. But once is not enough. Not even twice. Those situations need to be done so many times that it is ingrained in our mind and body.

Perfect situation: Someone cuts you off on landing. People tend to revert back to the norm when any situation arises that is high tension, high stress, etc. You are going to do the one action that you have done repeated times in the past.
Muscle memory takes minimum of 20 repetitions to achieve. There is very little chance that all of those situations could have been jumped 20 times each with only having 70+ jumps to your name.

The chances that you will handle a situation in the best possible way under a canopy loaded 1.4 has been substantially decreased without the benefit of experience and repetition.

Once again, just my .02
Dee

[freeflir29 0]

Sunday night......in complete darkness......as I was sliding along on my knees trying desperately to pop the canopy back up....... and wondering what bones I had just broken. I was quite glad that I was on a Stilletto 170 at 1.26. I have ~270 jumps and can get some pretty mad swoops on it. Landing in COMPLETE darkness was a new one though. Just for the record.....as I told you in Rantoul......"You're gonna die clown!!!" be careful with that wingloading!!!!

[happythoughts 0]

Lisa,
Just a little history... He downsized to a Sabre 150 on jump 23. In his opinion, "I think generalizations based soley on jump numbers do not work. " Personally, I think at 23 jumps, you shouldn't be allowed to choose what t-shirt to wear. At 32-jumps, he didn't have use an AAD, altimeter, or helmet.
People tend to ask for opinions until they find one that agrees with them. If he really wants a valid opinion, I agree with you Lisa, he should look at the manufacturers recommendation. Also, I would add that he talks to his local S&TA and ask for a sincere evaluation and listen to it.
This is just the opinion of someone who watched another jumper land 4 feet from him and go to the hospital this weekend. I'd like to jump with you some day Rev.

[skybytch 262]

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sometimes my mojo just isn't there

I feel confident that I could transition to something smaller this winter

So you can get away with the occasional "lazy" landing on a 1.2 wingloading. Think you'll be able to do that with a smaller canopy? The "safer" thing to do would be not downsizing until you are "working your mojo" on every landing with what you've got... because at a higher wingloading you will need to be "on it" for EVERY landing.

You mentioned landing in no wind "okay". Does that mean you stand up every no wind landing? How many times? How about crosswind? Downwind?

If you love jumping what you've got, why are you even thinking about downsizing? If you aren't flying what you have to the limits of it's performance and you aren't bored with it, why go smaller?

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I need to since I am overstuffing my container

This is not a reason to downsize. Why did you buy a container that is too small for the main you were getting? Sorry, but imho that's poor planning. Better to spend that money on a container that fits the main you have now.

I've done 18 sweet landings out of my last 20 jumps. Does this mean I'm ready to downsize? No. All that means is that I'm getting better at landing what I've got. A better question is how were the landings on my last 100 jumps - when I can say that I've stood up 95%+ of my last 100 landings in whatever conditions, with the bad landings being closer to the beginning of the 100 than the end, then I might be ready to go smaller.

Then again, I might not. Having spent too much time on the ground because I was trying to fly something that was too aggressive for my ability, I'm in no rush to fly anything smaller or more aggressive. I'm very lucky to be jumping at all considering the condition of my lower spine - I know others who had the same surgery I did who will never jump again. I like being able to jump whenever I want; being grounded sucks, pain sucks, doctors suck.

Just a few things to think about...

[faulknerwn 38]

People tend to see people like me as canopy Nazis - that's fine. But you must understand the reason - we've seen people get over their head. We've seen people become quadriplegics, we've seen people die. I know a bunch of people who quit the sport because they went too small, made some small mistake, and that was all she wrote. I had a friend who died under a 1.1 loaded canopy on her 201st jump. She had to land off in a tight area, got over her head and it cost her her life. I just want to keep my friends alive.

Every weekend at the dz I end up preaching this stuff over the beer light. You can make a Sabre 135 fly fast like a 120 by using front risers and such. When you're in a tight spot landing off, you can't make a Sabre 120 landing like a 135. ALWAYS plan for the worst case scenario. Maybe the worst case scenario may never happen, but if it does you might survive.

I've watched so many people downsize too quickly over the years. I've watched them hurt themselves too. I want my friends ro stay healthy so I have people to jump with.

The one thing that seems consistent among skydivers over the years is that everyone thinks they're the exception. "Yeah most people at my number of jumps can't land this, but I can. I have more skills than they do."

I see a lot of people who downsize smaller than they should and get scared of their canopy. It happened to me when I had about 500 jumps, and I upsized for a while. I got in over my head.

Just remember, most of us "canopy nazis" just want to keep our friends alive. I'm tired of burying people.

[happythoughts 0]

I'm with you. You can say I'm old and scared. Whatever. I am old and I do get scared. I hope to get older. I'm scared because of what I've seen. I have seen so many people hook in and go to the hospital now that I cannot give you a number. There is one thing worse than dying, that's almost dying.

[christoofar 0]

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You mentioned landing in no wind "okay". Does that mean you stand up every no wind landing? How many times? How about crosswind? Downwind?

I knew you were going to get "lillith" on me, Lisa.

I have not biffed a landing (read: PLF, tumble on the ground) since AFF. I have no problems landing this canopy that I am on, and have landed it in a 10mph downwind and jogged out the landing after the flare gave out (not sprint... jog). I land crosswind a lot @ home because of the tight landing pattern.

What I was asking before was if my habit of "toe-breaking" is bad and should be unlearned. When I remember to not do it I pick up my feet and plane out at the right altitude (couple feet off the ground)... then let the toggles down to stall. One person recommended that I stop doing it because I'll get in the habit of relying on my feet to contact the ground to make up for not "popping" the toggles at the right altitude to flare properly.

My S&TA has watched my landings, and he's really the only person I listen to when it comes down to the wire to make a decision of this sort.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[skybytch 262]

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My S&TA has watched my landings, and he's really the only person I listen to when it comes down to the wire to make a decision of this sort.

And that's a smart thing to do. The advice I give here (and over the phone at work) is necessarily conservative, since in the majority of cases I'm working with limited information (i.e. # jumps, body weight and where they jump) and I've never seen the person fly and land a canopy. I like to sleep at night; hearing about someone getting hurt when I either recommended or sold them the canopy they biffed under makes sleeping rather difficult.

[christoofar 0]

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My S&TA has watched my landings, and he's really the only person I listen to when it comes down to the wire to make a decision of this sort.

And that's a smart thing to do. The advice I give here (and over the phone at work) is necessarily conservative, since in the majority of cases I'm working with limited information (i.e. # jumps, body weight and where they jump) and I've never seen the person fly and land a canopy. I like to sleep at night; hearing about someone getting hurt when I either recommended or sold them the canopy they biffed under makes sleeping rather difficult.

Don't worry. I'll make sure you sleep very well.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[Deuce 1]

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-Can they land uphill and downhill?
-Can they land crosswind and no wind?
-Can they flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet, and 45 degrees in the flare?
-Can they land with rear risers?
-Can they reliably land standing up within a 10 meter circle?
-Can they do a steep approach?
-Can they make a single and double front riser approach to landing?
-Can they, at the very least, do no-contact CRW with someone else?

That's the most sensible answer to this often answered question that I've seen yet. I'd think that you could also add that just cause you can do that on a 170 Spectre doesn't mean you could downsize to a 150 Sabre2. I can do all that on my Spectre 170 and I think I'm safe to get a 150, but I don't think I would be safe to a 9 cell 150, cause I have zero nine-cell jumps. (Don't want a 9 cell, less running with my 7)

[Gravitymaster 0]

I'm too lazy to look it up on wreak, but didn't you recently post something about tearing up Don Jardines jumpsuit? Sorry if I am thinking about someone else but I'm pretty sure it was you. If it is, how did you come to tear his jumpsuit up? Was it landing your 1.4 loaded parachute?