Avoiding canopy Collisions.

[AggieDave 6]

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maybe you should tell the swoopers and highly loaded pilots on the load that if they plan on pulling a big turn then they should stick to a hop and pop.

That's what I have been saying for some time now. That's what many swoopers have been telling people for some time now.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 1,623]

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(ever notice how the *big* big ways have wingloading restrictions).

Name one?

The last world record had a 1.6 restriction if I remember correctly. I know it had one, but I don't remember if it was 1.6 or lower than that.

On the last three that I was on, it was not a requirement.

Also, none of the state or POPS records brought it up.

That said, most people are not doing records.
Records are, by definition, a rare event.
99% of jumpers will never participate.

Most people are just doing 15-way at the dz.
The discussion should be more directed towards canopy collisions that occur during the "most weekends at the dz" circumstances.

There was/is a WL recommendation for the Texas State Record 150 way, and for the World, TX and IL POPS records.

See, for example,
Here
and
Here.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bodypilot1 0]

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>Name one?

World Team '06.

I'd have to dig out my folder for WT 06 to see if that was on there, but if it was, it was only a recommendation NOT a rule. There was information given to us before we left for Thailand, so I dout people would change canopy sizes after they got there, unless they were bringing it along with them as a spare canopy.There was plenty of canopies there over 1.6, as well as mine at 1.9, and I had no problems even when landing in a small school yard a mile off the base with 5 other canopies.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[popsjumper 2]

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...It doesn't mean I don't get to swoop, it just means that I am resonsible about when I chose to do so, and after a turbine pass with 20 other canopies in the air is not that time.

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>
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If only all were that intelligent.

Most of the problems in this area are caused by the tandem vidiots as far as I can see. Most like to swoop and since they need to be on-site for the tandem landing and since the tandems most often land in the main landing area, the tandem vidiots swoop the main landing area amidst the pattern landings. They seemingly just cannot restrain themselves.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tsalnukt 1]

As a vidiot....most of the time we are opening much higher than everyone else on the load and we are some of the last out of the plane. Unless the video guys are spiraling down trying to get down really fast, (which can be just as bad) Most everyone that is landing in the main landing area has already landed freeing up the air space. I know a lot of us don't want the traffic and we can hang in brakes so that everyone else can get down before us. Yes there sometimes are people still in the pattern when we are landing and it is our responsibility to land safely and not endanger anyone else just because we want to swoop. I don't think it's the video people that swoop that are screwing it all up...I think it's the idiots that don't realize that there are 22 other people on the load and everyone better look out for me attitudes.

Clear and predictable patterns coupled with knowledge and the right attitude....will help

[billvon 2,396]

>it was only a recommendation NOT a rule.

I saw both. It was in one of BJ's emails. It was not strongly enforced.

>There was plenty of canopies there over 1.6, as well as mine at 1.9 . . .

Like I said, it wasn't strongly enforced, and in bigways you can get away with a lot if you stay invisible.

[itllclear 1]

When I started jumping almost 40 years ago, we were told during the FJC:

"the moment you leave the plane, you are dead unless YOU do something about it.

YOU

not USPA

Not the DZO

Not the instructor

Not the rigger

Not the pilot

Not the other jumpers on the load.

YOU

So what can YOU do to avoid canopy collisions?

Don't do HP turns unless you can visually account for EVERY other canopy on the load.

Don't jump a highly loaded canopy on a load with other jumpers in the air.

When arriving at a new DZ find out 1) Where the congested landing areas are, 2) Where people who are making HP landings make their turns, and 3) alternative landing areas. Resolve to avoid the airspace used by people landing in #1 & #2, and land in #3.

If there are no acceptable alternate landing areas, and you are not sure you'll be in a position to keep track of every other canopy on the load, don't jump at that DZ. If you want to do some good for the jumping community, you could tell the DZO "I'm not buying jump tickets because the landing patterns are outside of my comfort level." That shows that YOU are taking responsibility for your own safety. You're not accusing the DZO of running an unsafe DZ. If enough people vote with their $, the DZO may change the rule, or again, may not. It's YOUR decision whether to jump there or not.

Even if you decide to open your own DZ and enforce strict penalties for violations, it only takes one error. Too late to ban someone after the coroner leaves the scene.

It all comes down to YOU being responsible for your own safety. If everyone did this, there would be far fewer collisions.

Blue Skies!

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[mjosparky 3]

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When I started jumping almost 40 years ago, we were told during the FJC:

"the moment you leave the plane, you are dead unless YOU do something about it.

YOU

not USPA

Not the DZO

Not the instructor

Not the rigger

Not the pilot

Not the other jumpers on the load.

YOU

So what can YOU do to avoid canopy collisions?

Don't do HP turns unless you can visually account for EVERY other canopy on the load.

Don't jump a highly loaded canopy on a load with other jumpers in the air.

When arriving at a new DZ find out 1) Where the congested landing areas are, 2) Where people who are making HP landings make their turns, and 3) alternative landing areas. Resolve to avoid the airspace used by people landing in #1 & #2, and land in #3.

If there are no acceptable alternate landing areas, and you are not sure you'll be in a position to keep track of every other canopy on the load, don't jump at that DZ. If you want to do some good for the jumping community, you could tell the DZO "I'm not buying jump tickets because the landing patterns are outside of my comfort level." That shows that YOU are taking responsibility for your own safety. You're not accusing the DZO of running an unsafe DZ. If enough people vote with their $, the DZO may change the rule, or again, may not. It's YOUR decision whether to jump there or not.

Even if you decide to open your own DZ and enforce strict penalties for violations, it only takes one error. Too late to ban someone after the coroner leaves the scene.

It all comes down to YOU being responsible for your own safety. If everyone did this, there would be far fewer collisions.

Blue Skies!

Harry

And this folks is the truth of it. If you jump where people do dangerous things in the pattern don’t jump there any more. Skydiving is recreation and not worth dying for.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[popsjumper 2]

You say all these things:

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As a vidiot....most of the time we are opening much higher than everyone else on the load and we are some of the last out of the plane.
-Unless the video guys are spiraling down trying to get down really fast, (which can be just as bad)
-Most everyone that is landing in the main landing area has already landed freeing up the air space.
-I know a lot of us don't want the traffic and we can hang in brakes so that everyone else can get down before us.
-Yes there sometimes are people still in the pattern when we are landing and it is our responsibility to land safely and not endanger anyone else just because we want to swoop.

The irony is that you follow all that up with:
"I don't think it's the video people that swoop that are screwing it all up...I think it's the idiots that don't realize that there are 22 other people on the load and everyone better look out for me attitudes."

Clear and predictable patterns coupled with knowledge and the right attitude....will help.

Have you ever heard, "It's the one that you DON'T see that hurts you?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Bill_K 0]

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Have you ever heard, "It's the one that you DON'T see that hurts KILLS you?

Fixed if for you Andy.

[tsalnukt 1]

A good canopy pilot should KNOW where EVERYONE is. I can agree with what you are saying but there really shouldn't be anyone that you don't see. Good skydivers/canopy pilots have a responsibility to know where everyone is. In the plane you should be looking around a seeing what groups are in front of you and what groups are behind you. You should be looking for these people under canopy. If you can't find everyone that could be a potential traffic hazard then you need to be extra careful when landing and maybe you should fly a safer more defensive landing. They call us experienced skydivers. we need to be responsible skydivers

[popsjumper 2]

OK...you are basing your stance on "good canopy pilots". Oh for the love of having everyone in the plane be a "good canopy pilot". In a perfect world you are absolutely right...everyone should know and exercise common sense and logic.

I would only argue that "you need to be extra careful when landing and maybe you should fly a safer more defensive landing" on EVERY jump, regardless of who or how many you see.

Now let's think of reality...and how to best account for and minimize the problems.

For me, all I can do is try my best to find and see the bozo that's trying to run into me and realize that there are no guarantees on being able to do that 100% of the time regardless of landing rules and methodology. If anyone kills me, I will be very, very pissed.

Thanks for your input.

I'm outta here.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mirage62 0]

Hey Andy,
LOL, make you a deal. If I cause and accident that kills someone - you piss on my grave - if someone kills me you stomp there ass (if they live) otherwise take a big dump on there grave.

Works for me and thats about ALL that this group could decide on!!

fr

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[RaXz 0]

Great post!

Some people have difficulty grasping the concept of separation, once I had someone directly on top of me with less than 10 metres vertical seperation, when I was about to enter the landing pattern. I only kept a close eye on him, next time there's gonna be yelling too to stay the f*ck away from me.

This week I was on a boogie, kept my head on a swivel. I saw a jumper somewhat higher than me, and I was flying around 1800 feet. I was too fixated on getting to the 1000 ft line, I had to fly into the wind because I was dropped a bit upwind. The other jumper started spiraling at a height I am not comfortabel with. And stopped spiraling at he same height I was flying, to top that she was heading straight at me!

We had eyecontact, she was a bit at the right to me. So I decided that the best course of action was a small turn to the left instead to the right. She did the same and we zoomed past each other with 40 ft horizontal seperation. That was really a wakeup call, I assume that people follow the rules, but still acknowledging the fact that they don't always do so. I've had a talk with her about this, and her reckless spiralling. And about mine mistake to fixate on the 1000 ft. line instead to stay away as far away as other traffic permits.

[pinkfairy 0]

Thanks for a very good post, most of us should really already know this stuff, but it's incredible what people forget and ignore.

Allow me to add:

Airplanes do have an option that we don't have, they can abort a landing attempt, climb and try again. We have to make the best of whatever we've got.

And: New jumpers: 1. Collapsing the slider is not important on big, lightly wingloaded canopies, they fly well even with a flapping slider. I see people NOT looking ahead messing with their slider or taking off their booties when they should be focusing on more important things.

And: 2. flying on half brakes makes you go down more slowly, a really good trick on a single airplane DZ is hanging on brakes and letting people with the faster canopies land first, that's a very easy way to avoid traffic. I have a very lightly wingloaded canopy, and spend a lot of time in the pattern, but if I time my entry into the pattern well, I'm not in anyone's way. New jumpers with big, slow canopies spiralling down are not popular.

That's the two things that I see most often: people flying around not seeing where they are going, and the RACE to be first down.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[RaXz 0]

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Airplanes do have an option that we don't have, they can abort a landing attempt, climb and try again. We have to make the best of whatever we've got.

I heard a mind boggling tale about an jumper, that went for the reserve because she tought that she would go up when a parachute deploys to buy some time, seen it on tv I guess.

Of course, she was grounded after that, if I remember correctly.

[itllclear 1]

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stay away as far away as other traffic permits

Bingo ---

If you're in the "landing pattern" you're not staying away from the congested area. See my post #32 above.

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[RaXz 0]

Some jumps after the jump I described in a previous post, I did something that made me mad at myself. I was open a fair distance upwind of the 1000 ft. line, and I saw a lot of congestion at the landing pattern area, some that still had to enter the pattern were on the same height as me. And I was flying in clear airspace as far as I could see. I couldn't get much speed with flying into the wind, so I feared that I disrupted it if I went for the pattern.

I chose to do a spiral from 3000 to 2500 and went straight in to a corner of the landing area. The others were mostly on the downwind and crosswind legs, although there was a good separation between me and the other jumpers. It felt as if I failed, even though it felt relatively safe I was mad at myself for the fact that I didn't abide to the rules.

But coming to think of it, squeezing myself with force in side a landing pattern sounds a bit like doing stupid things just to land into the wind. I don't know if I am right though, I am still a newbie. The only complaints I heard at that time were from myself.

[itllclear 1]

You seem fixated on the "1,000 foot line." It sounds like a "funnel" into which many others will fly, causing congestion from that point down.

Talk to the instructors, S & TA, and DZO at your DZ and get their input on how to stay OUT of the area that's congested. Especially with your low jump numbers, you've got enough to worry about just controlling YOUR canopy to be worried about what the others, who may not how to control THEIR canopies, might be doing.

I'm saying this not as an instructor, but as an old jumper who wants to get older. Take this advice however you want to.

Blue Skies!

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[RaXz 0]

I think you are right, so I take your advice at heart.
I have some previous experience with jumping at a boogie, but it doesn't count for much because I did my whole AFF course on a boogie and a couple of solo's. All the traffic was down below me, and I always landed last.

Blue skies

[gimpboogie 0]

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Great post JP, and good thoughts...

Having sat on the deck while coaches talked students down, something I haven't heard:

- "Identify the other canopies around you"

It will ussually only be tandem canopies, and while they are slower than tandems or sport both vertically and horizontally, there doesn't seem to be an effort from the very beginning to "scan the sky".

A possible solution to "starting early"???

Best,
Dru

I am a student skydiver (only 1 yr in this sport) and my method of entry to this sport is through tandem progression (then on to AFF).

While trying to learn, I came across this thread.
Thanks for the reminder....

on a positive note, my AFF coach stressed the circle of awareness starting with my tandem progression days when he would key me in to "lookin for the others" in the skies.

As he indicated to me, most of the time there was no one else in the skies except a tandem or two, but on one occasion we had a FF check out student who had pulled high, under a canopy at 1,500f coming directly towards us.

Now, having grown with a one cesna 206 DZ to a 2 cesna with a grand caravan DZ, I am so glad Angus always stressed the circle of awareness, as am flying in the skies with everyone else coming down from above me (mostly I am the first 1-3 out the door of a load of 18).

We had a canopy collision of experienced divers at our DZ at the beginning of the season, which reminded me to read more about how to avoid this.
Thanks JP for this timely reminder for us all.

To become active member in the Bonus Days Club you must very narrowly escape eternal freefall ... one exciting time.)-Pat Works

[beckyJ 0]

Well stated.

I have also noted a few things over the years. It seems that another big issue is with some swoopers. When people get into swooping or are trying to perfect things they are all too often concerned with thier set-up and getting that perfect swoop. Although they may be aware of other canopies they often forget about them when it comes to thier setup altitude. And of course most swoopers want to land right in front of the crowd.

I recently had a discussion with someone who has been in the sport a lot longer with thousands more jumps and we had both come to the conclusion we would be much better swoopers if we weren't so concerned about other canopies.

I love high performance landings as much as the next person, but will be the first person to abort my set-up.

My suggestion, especially to newer jumpers, is to not be in such a hurry to land. The ground will come sooner or later. Stagger landings. Head on a swivel even when you are flaring (you are not done flying that canopy until the canopy is on the ground, not just your feet), and if you want a good swoop, plan on having to abort your plan if the potential for others to get in your way is there.

Wondering what others experiences are with cocky canopy pilots needs to have the perfect swoop regardless of other jumpers (hanging in risers until their at their set-up altitude then blasting past and cutting in front of others to have an awesome swoop and then yelling at you for getting in their way or commenting on how they never saw you).

[itllclear 1]

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When people get into swooping or are trying to perfect things they are all too often concerned with thier set-up

This includes not only swoopers, but accurancy jumpers, or even beginners really concerned with their landings.

As has often been said, any time you are more concerned with where you're going to land than the location of other canopies, you're increasing your chances of a collision.

YOU are responsible for YOUR safety. If you are more concerned with walking away from your landing, land away from everyone else. If you're not near them, they can't hit you, and you can't hit them.

If you are willing to leave the DZ in a hearse, pay attention to where you land and forget the other canopies.

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[kallend 1,623]

Recent incidents make it time to bump the thread.

As one who has survived a very low altitude canopy collision and watched three people die in collisions or due to collision avoidance maneuvers, I'd like to state again that whether you live or die after a collision at 100' or lower has zero to do with your skills and everything to do with luck. So no matter how good you think you are, you'd better pay attention and keep your head on a swivel.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[erdnarob 1]

Coming back to the original thread I believe the main word to avoid canopy collision is discipline.
Discipline in order to follow the recommendations of the DZ or load organizer. Spiralling, no way. Following the prescribed pattern is a must do. If at 1000 feet too many canopies including yours are going to land more or less at the same time in a quite specific area you can decide to hold by applying half brakes. The other canopies will keep on descending but faster than you. When you see them way ahead of you, you can resume your descent at normal rate.
A particular tricky case is when you are about to land and suddenly you see at the corner of your eyes another canopy not quite parallel with respect to you but slightly converging. It is important that before being in very short final for landing to have some fast glance sideway just in case of converging canopies. That happened to me and I started yelling to the other guy since I was going to land a bit before him. He didn't react. I said afterward he never saw or heard me. He was wearing a full face helmet.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.