blitzkrieg 0 #1 December 30, 2008 so.... let says hypothetically... someone has a "routine" cut-away, skyhook rsl reserve deployment and then after... upon inspection, the red lanyard from the rsl to the skyhook itself has been snapped off. what do you think would cause that, and why? hypothetically of course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #2 December 30, 2008 Quotethe red lanyard from the rsl to the skyhook itself has been snapped off. Snapped off where? At the hook itself, the Collins Lanyard loop or somewhere in the middle?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blitzkrieg 0 #3 December 30, 2008 about two inches above where it attaches to the RSL lanyard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #4 December 30, 2008 Where the "thin" part of the lanyard is in the first picture here? http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Rigging/09109(skyhPackIns).pdf I'm just curious and not a rigger.... but that almost looks like it's designed to break. I hope someone who knows what the hell they're talking about weighs in.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #5 December 30, 2008 UPT would probably be able to best answer this. I believe Mark frequents these boards and may be able to offer some insight. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #6 December 30, 2008 Not the first time the red lanyard has been called into question. In fact, the French federation have this Safety circular recommending that the red lanyard be disconnected completely due to potential issues they have identified(which are mentioned in the circular). EDIT: to add the english version(minus the picture) TECHNICAL AND PEDAGOGICAL COMMITTEE SAFETY NOTE N° 163 Réf.: JMS/08/ Date: November 13, 2008 Issued by: FFP Object: Main Assisted Reserve Deployment device (type Skyhook). Concerned Equipment: Harness/container Vector & Javelin. Text: The technical adviser has been alerted to: -Several reserve opening in turns and with line twists, following a cutaway with a Skyhook mounted in a Vector harness/container: -A Tandem fatality following a low pull, AAD firing during main deployment and interfere of the “skyhook” MARD device with the reserve deployment. -The potential risk of a baglocked main hitting the reserve canopy during its deployment after a Tandem cutaway. Analysis of incidents shows that in case of an heavily loaded main canopy rotating fast with line twists, once the skydiver cuts away, the skyhook speeds up the reserve opening and so does not leave enough time for the skydiver to stop the turn, the result of which is a reserve with line twists. Analysis of the fatality shows that during a low main opening, the AAD fired normally, causing the reserve container to open. Ground tests have shown that it is very probable that: -because of the momentum of the bagged reserve, it will fall out of the reserve container and put the red “skyhook” lanyard into tension, combined with a low airspeed this prevents the disconnection of the lanyard from the Skyhook, preventing a clean reserve deployment. -the reserve bag, because of its weight, could have pulled the Collins lanyard causing a left sided 3 ring disconnection, leaving the tandem pair with a streamering main on one riser. The Tandem master then cutaway the main and found himself with a reserve horseshoe. >picture removed due to file size< Action: While waiting for corrective action from the manufacturers, disconnect and completely remove the red lanyard from the “skyhook” system. Qualified staff: Rigger. Compliance Date: Before next jump for all Sigma Tandems Before 31 st of december, 2008 for personal rigs In case of difficulty, contact Eric FRADET Distribution List: President F.F.P. − D.T.N. − Drop zone managers − Sunpath, UPT − Senior and master / riggers − French Navy,Army, Airborne headquarters - C.T.P members. − C.E.V.A.P − B.S.A.P − B.S.M.A.T Montauban − D.T.M.P.L OrlŽans − FCSAD − DGAC Monsieur JOUBERT − DGA Monsieur PERRIN − Direction des Sports Monsieur MORLET − Paramag − FFP Contacts"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blitzkrieg 0 #7 December 30, 2008 thanks Ian, i hope so. i'm just very curious about this. hope all is well with ya'! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blitzkrieg 0 #8 December 30, 2008 very interesting. thanks Scott. although i can't read it, i'm ever curious about this debate that i've obviously not stayed up with... edit: thanks again! haha, now i can read it. spooky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #9 December 30, 2008 I think what you see on the picture (from UPT) you mention about the red lanyard is a special bad effect (probably one sees the 550 lbs sheating from its profile). Here is a picture I have posted on another thread where everything looks OK. Also I think the French bulletin is not about the structure of this red lanyard which was the question asked by the author of this thread. This red lanyard with its specific length has a role to play about keeping the proper sequence of events.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #10 December 30, 2008 QuoteI think what you see on the picture (from UPT) you mention about the red lanyard is a special bad effect (probably one sees the 550 lbs sheating from its profile). Thanks, I see what you mean. Maybe it's the lighting?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
percy 0 #11 December 30, 2008 Quote ... TECHNICAL AND PEDAGOGICAL COMMITTEE SAFETY NOTE N° 163 Réf.: JMS/08/ Date: November 13, 2008 Issued by: FFP Object: Main Assisted Reserve Deployment device (type Skyhook). Concerned Equipment: Harness/container Vector & Javelin. In case of difficulty, contact Eric FRADET ... Excuse Scott, but the French federation FFP has withdrawn the safety circular #163 with that title; the title new safety circular # 163 is Cypres lifetime. Click Here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kruse 0 #12 December 30, 2008 I've got one for you. Misroute the Skyhook RSL under the reserve risers, then simulate an RSL deployment. See what happens. Mark PS.. How's that base rig working out for you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blitzkrieg 0 #13 December 30, 2008 Hey Mark! well, i hope that is not the case, that would seem like a very bad mistake. the BASE rig is a very happy addition to the family. thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #14 December 30, 2008 QuoteI've got one for you. Misroute the Skyhook RSL under the reserve risers, then simulate an RSL deployment. See what happens. True, but any RSL misrouted under the reserve risers or misrouted under anything for that matter (i.e. Cypres control head cable) and then an RSL deplopyment will get ugly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #15 December 30, 2008 Quote Quote ... TECHNICAL AND PEDAGOGICAL COMMITTEE SAFETY NOTE N° 163 Réf.: JMS/08/ Date: November 13, 2008 Issued by: FFP Object: Main Assisted Reserve Deployment device (type Skyhook). Concerned Equipment: Harness/container Vector & Javelin. In case of difficulty, contact Eric FRADET ... Excuse Scott, but the French federation FFP has withdrawn the safety circular #163 with that title; the title new safety circular # 163 is Cypres lifetime. Click Here Renato, I see what you mean but the FFP still has the SC on the skyhoook available on their site here. I do not know if it is a numbering sequence error or if it has actually been rescinded by the FFP. If it has, an explanation why would be appropriate I think."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divnswoop 0 #16 December 30, 2008 Quote upon inspection, the red lanyard from the rsl to the skyhook itself has been snapped off. what do you think would cause that, and why? hypothetically of course. Hypothetically, maybe it's because it was designed to break there. A fully inflated main can create much more snatch than a pilot chute. If this snatch exceeds a certain force then we could run into the hypothetical reserve bag strip.(if you believe in that) I know of three occations where the red laynard has broke. They were all on very large parachutes 300+ that had a 1.3 wingloading. QuoteI do not know if it is a numbering sequence error or if it has actually been rescinded by the FFP. If it has, an explanation why would be appropriate I think. I would like to hear why it was rescinded too. (if it was) Eric you have been in these forums a lot lately, can you clarify for us? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
percy 0 #17 December 30, 2008 Quote Renato, I see what you mean but the FFP still has the SC on the skyhoook available on their site here. I do not know if it is a numbering sequence error or if it has actually been rescinded by the FFP. If it has, an explanation why would be appropriate I think. Scott, This link http://www.ffp.asso.fr/spip.php?rubrique296 is the official website of the French Federation of Parachuting and this is the page of Safety Circular Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kruse 0 #18 December 30, 2008 Do a fuctional test on both and tell me if you still feel that way. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #19 December 30, 2008 QuoteDo a fuctional test on both and tell me if you still feel that way. Seriously. Don't have to. Did that. Sure, a misrouted Skyhook RSL is going to be "uglier" during a mal, but any misrouted RSL is going to get ugly during a mal. So what's your point? Or is this just another bent on RSL bashing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #20 December 30, 2008 I think it's a bad idea for anyone to consider anything unsafe if improperly assembled. I mean damn those brakes will kill you if you put the pads in backwards! Your rigger is expected to correctly assemble your reserve and/or RSL/MARD system. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 599 #21 December 30, 2008 "Quoteabout two inches above where it attaches to the RSL lanyard." ...................................................................... If that is the end of the fingertrap insert, then it is the weakest part of the (gutted 550 cord suspension line) red lanyard. Then it devolves to a question of workmanship. If the inner cord is cut square (bad) the outer casing will consistently break there. If the inner cord is cut on a slant (good) the lanyard will be stronger and might fail anywhere. To the orignal poster ... your lanyard was subjected to a much higher-than-normal load (more than 600 pounds) ... or it was damaged before it was loaded. Even a little fraying vastly reduces strength of suspension line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,732 #22 December 30, 2008 >Sure, a misrouted Skyhook RSL is going to be "uglier" during a mal, but >any misrouted RSL is going to get ugly during a mal. Right. But ugly meaning a reserve riser pulled out 6" before deployment begins is a whole world away from a main in tow that will not clear, or a reserve PC through a reserve riser. The Skyhook absolutely needs more care during packing, both because it is more complex and because the mode of operation (i.e. will not disconnect the main from the reserve freebag in some cases) can lead to a larger hazard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #23 December 30, 2008 Quote >Sure, a misrouted Skyhook RSL is going to be "uglier" during a mal, but >any misrouted RSL is going to get ugly during a mal. Right. But ugly meaning a reserve riser pulled out 6" before deployment begins is a whole world away from a main in tow that will not clear, or a reserve PC through a reserve riser. The Skyhook absolutely needs more care during packing, both because it is more complex and because the mode of operation (i.e. will not disconnect the main from the reserve freebag in some cases) can lead to a larger hazard. Yeah. No Shit. I wasn't arguing that one way or the other. I disagree with you though that a misrouted RSL is any more (or less) okay (depending on how you look at it) if its a traditional RSL vs. a Skyhook. Both are "bad". Anyway, I'm disapointed in myself for getting involved in another "RSL thread"... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #24 December 31, 2008 QuoteI think it's a bad idea for anyone to consider anything unsafe if improperly assembled. I mean damn those brakes will kill you if you put the pads in backwards! Your rigger is expected to correctly assemble your reserve and/or RSL/MARD system. -Michael True, true. The one thing that nags at me though about all the MARD systems in general is the possibility, however slight, of the system catching the reserve p/c in a total mal situation. I'm not just talking about incorrect installations either, though the record shows some of those have already been found and so far (thank God) corrected. Not to mention some of the rigging horrors with people's reserves that surface a couple times a year. Simple fact of human nature is that some people never learn. But as with anything new, there are sometimes the "surprise" scenarios that don't rear their ugly faces until even a few years pass. And that's why for now I think I'll give all the MARDS a pass and stick with my imperfect RSL, which "only" pulls my ripcord pin. The only time I ever used it, it had me to line stretch as I was finishing my ripcord pull and that impressed me just fine. Please don't get me wrong - I'm VERY impressed with Skyhooks and MARDS, especially some of the real life cutaway vids. The one of the guy who spun up his canopy at Skydive Long Island is especially fantastic. It's just the thought of something snagging my reserve in a total situation that stops me in my tracks. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,264 #25 December 31, 2008 Hi Tom, Re: It's just the thought of something snagging my reserve in a total situation that stops me in my tracks. You don't have an email in your profile; so would you send me an email and I can share some thoughts/info on this with you. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites