Skyhook mal???...

[blitzkrieg 0]

so.... let says hypothetically...

someone has a "routine" cut-away, skyhook rsl reserve deployment and then after...

upon inspection, the red lanyard from the rsl to the skyhook itself has been snapped off.

what do you think would cause that, and why?

hypothetically of course.

[labrys 0]

Quote

the red lanyard from the rsl to the skyhook itself has been snapped off.

Snapped off where? At the hook itself, the Collins Lanyard loop or somewhere in the middle?

Owned by Remi #?

[blitzkrieg 0]

about two inches above where it attaches to the RSL lanyard.

[labrys 0]

Where the "thin" part of the lanyard is in the first picture here?

http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Rigging/09109(skyhPackIns).pdf

I'm just curious and not a rigger.... but that almost looks like it's designed to break. I hope someone who knows what the hell they're talking about weighs in.

Owned by Remi #?

[ianmdrennan 2]

UPT would probably be able to best answer this.

I believe Mark frequents these boards and may be able to offer some insight.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[LouDiamond 1]

Not the first time the red lanyard has been called into question. In fact, the French federation have this Safety circular recommending that the red lanyard be disconnected completely due to potential issues they have identified(which are mentioned in the circular).


EDIT: to add the english version(minus the picture)

TECHNICAL AND PEDAGOGICAL COMMITTEE
SAFETY NOTE N° 163

Réf.: JMS/08/
Date: November 13, 2008

Issued by: FFP

Object: Main Assisted Reserve Deployment device (type Skyhook).

Concerned Equipment: Harness/container Vector & Javelin.

Text: The technical adviser has been alerted to:
-Several reserve opening in turns and with line twists, following a cutaway with a Skyhook mounted in a Vector harness/container:
-A Tandem fatality following a low pull, AAD firing during main deployment and interfere of the “skyhook” MARD device with the reserve deployment.
-The potential risk of a baglocked main hitting the reserve canopy during its deployment after a Tandem cutaway.

Analysis of incidents shows that in case of an heavily loaded main canopy rotating fast with line twists, once the skydiver cuts away, the skyhook speeds up the reserve opening and so does not leave enough time for the skydiver to stop the turn, the result of which is a reserve with line twists.

Analysis of the fatality shows that during a low main opening, the AAD fired normally, causing the reserve container to open.
Ground tests have shown that it is very probable that:
-because of the momentum of the bagged reserve, it will fall out of the reserve container and put the red “skyhook” lanyard into tension, combined with a low airspeed this prevents the disconnection of the lanyard from the Skyhook, preventing a clean reserve deployment.
-the reserve bag, because of its weight, could have pulled the Collins lanyard causing a left sided 3 ring disconnection, leaving the tandem pair with a streamering main on one riser.
The Tandem master then cutaway the main and found himself with a reserve horseshoe.


>picture removed due to file size<

Action: While waiting for corrective action from the manufacturers, disconnect and completely remove the red lanyard from the “skyhook” system.

Qualified staff: Rigger.

Compliance Date:
Before next jump for all Sigma Tandems
Before 31 st of december, 2008 for personal rigs

In case of difficulty, contact Eric FRADET

Distribution List:
President F.F.P.
− D.T.N.
− Drop zone managers
− Sunpath, UPT
− Senior and master / riggers
− French Navy,Army, Airborne headquarters
- C.T.P members.
− C.E.V.A.P
− B.S.A.P
− B.S.M.A.T Montauban
− D.T.M.P.L OrlŽans
− FCSAD
− DGAC Monsieur JOUBERT
− DGA Monsieur PERRIN
− Direction des Sports Monsieur MORLET
− Paramag
− FFP Contacts

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[blitzkrieg 0]

thanks Ian, i hope so. i'm just very curious about this.

hope all is well with ya'!

[blitzkrieg 0]

very interesting. thanks Scott. although i can't read it, i'm ever curious about this debate that i've obviously not stayed up with...

edit: thanks again! haha, now i can read it. spooky.

[erdnarob 1]

I think what you see on the picture (from UPT) you mention about the red lanyard is a special bad effect (probably one sees the 550 lbs sheating from its profile). Here is a picture I have posted on another thread where everything looks OK. Also I think the French bulletin is not about the structure of this red lanyard which was the question asked by the author of this thread. This red lanyard with its specific length has a role to play about keeping the proper sequence of events.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[labrys 0]

Quote

I think what you see on the picture (from UPT) you mention about the red lanyard is a special bad effect (probably one sees the 550 lbs sheating from its profile).

Thanks, I see what you mean. Maybe it's the lighting?

Owned by Remi #?

[percy 0]

Quote

...
TECHNICAL AND PEDAGOGICAL COMMITTEE SAFETY NOTE N° 163
Réf.: JMS/08/
Date: November 13, 2008
Issued by: FFP
Object: Main Assisted Reserve Deployment device (type Skyhook).
Concerned Equipment: Harness/container Vector & Javelin.
In case of difficulty, contact Eric FRADET
...

Excuse Scott, but the French federation FFP has withdrawn the safety circular #163 with that title; the title new safety circular # 163 is Cypres lifetime. Click Here

[kruse 0]

I've got one for you. Misroute the Skyhook RSL under the reserve risers, then simulate an RSL deployment. See what happens.
Mark
PS.. How's that base rig working out for you?

[blitzkrieg 0]

Hey Mark! well, i hope that is not the case, that would seem like a very bad mistake.

the BASE rig is a very happy addition to the family. thanks!

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Quote

I've got one for you. Misroute the Skyhook RSL under the reserve risers, then simulate an RSL deployment. See what happens.

True, but any RSL misrouted under the reserve risers or misrouted under anything for that matter (i.e. Cypres control head cable) and then an RSL deplopyment will get ugly.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Quote

...
TECHNICAL AND PEDAGOGICAL COMMITTEE SAFETY NOTE N° 163
Réf.: JMS/08/
Date: November 13, 2008
Issued by: FFP
Object: Main Assisted Reserve Deployment device (type Skyhook).
Concerned Equipment: Harness/container Vector & Javelin.
In case of difficulty, contact Eric FRADET
...

Excuse Scott, but the French federation FFP has withdrawn the safety circular #163 with that title; the title new safety circular # 163 is Cypres lifetime. Click Here

Renato, I see what you mean but the FFP still has the SC on the skyhoook available on their site here. I do not know if it is a numbering sequence error or if it has actually been rescinded by the FFP. If it has, an explanation why would be appropriate I think.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[divnswoop 0]

Quote

upon inspection, the red lanyard from the rsl to the skyhook itself has been snapped off.

what do you think would cause that, and why?

hypothetically of course.

Hypothetically, maybe it's because it was designed to break there. A fully inflated main can create much more snatch than a pilot chute. If this snatch exceeds a certain force then we could run into the hypothetical reserve bag strip.(if you believe in that)

I know of three occations where the red laynard has broke. They were all on very large parachutes 300+ that had a 1.3 wingloading.

Quote

I do not know if it is a numbering sequence error or if it has actually been rescinded by the FFP. If it has, an explanation why would be appropriate I think.

I would like to hear why it was rescinded too. (if it was) Eric you have been in these forums a lot lately, can you clarify for us?

[percy 0]

Quote

Renato, I see what you mean but the FFP still has the SC on the skyhoook available on their site here. I do not know if it is a numbering sequence error or if it has actually been rescinded by the FFP. If it has, an explanation why would be appropriate I think.

Scott,
This link http://www.ffp.asso.fr/spip.php?rubrique296 is the official website of the French Federation of Parachuting and this is the page of Safety Circular

[kruse 0]

Do a fuctional test on both and tell me if you still feel that way. Seriously.

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Quote

Do a fuctional test on both and tell me if you still feel that way. Seriously.

Don't have to. Did that. Sure, a misrouted Skyhook RSL is going to be "uglier" during a mal, but any misrouted RSL is going to get ugly during a mal.

So what's your point? Or is this just another bent on RSL bashing?

[hackish 8]

I think it's a bad idea for anyone to consider anything unsafe if improperly assembled. I mean damn those brakes will kill you if you put the pads in backwards! Your rigger is expected to correctly assemble your reserve and/or RSL/MARD system.

-Michael

[riggerrob 602]

"

Quote

about two inches above where it attaches to the RSL lanyard.

"

......................................................................

If that is the end of the fingertrap insert, then it is the weakest part of the (gutted 550 cord suspension line) red lanyard.
Then it devolves to a question of workmanship. If the inner cord is cut square (bad) the outer casing will consistently break there.
If the inner cord is cut on a slant (good) the lanyard will be stronger and might fail anywhere.

To the orignal poster ... your lanyard was subjected to a much higher-than-normal load (more than 600 pounds) ... or it was damaged before it was loaded. Even a little fraying vastly reduces strength of suspension line.

[billvon 2,739]

>Sure, a misrouted Skyhook RSL is going to be "uglier" during a mal, but
>any misrouted RSL is going to get ugly during a mal.

Right. But ugly meaning a reserve riser pulled out 6" before deployment begins is a whole world away from a main in tow that will not clear, or a reserve PC through a reserve riser. The Skyhook absolutely needs more care during packing, both because it is more complex and because the mode of operation (i.e. will not disconnect the main from the reserve freebag in some cases) can lead to a larger hazard.

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Quote

>Sure, a misrouted Skyhook RSL is going to be "uglier" during a mal, but
>any misrouted RSL is going to get ugly during a mal.

Right. But ugly meaning a reserve riser pulled out 6" before deployment begins is a whole world away from a main in tow that will not clear, or a reserve PC through a reserve riser. The Skyhook absolutely needs more care during packing, both because it is more complex and because the mode of operation (i.e. will not disconnect the main from the reserve freebag in some cases) can lead to a larger hazard.

Yeah. No Shit.

I wasn't arguing that one way or the other.

I disagree with you though that a misrouted RSL is any more (or less) okay (depending on how you look at it) if its a traditional RSL vs. a Skyhook. Both are "bad".


Anyway, I'm disapointed in myself for getting involved in another "RSL thread"...

[tbrown 26]

Quote

I think it's a bad idea for anyone to consider anything unsafe if improperly assembled. I mean damn those brakes will kill you if you put the pads in backwards! Your rigger is expected to correctly assemble your reserve and/or RSL/MARD system.
-Michael

True, true. The one thing that nags at me though about all the MARD systems in general is the possibility, however slight, of the system catching the reserve p/c in a total mal situation. I'm not just talking about incorrect installations either, though the record shows some of those have already been found and so far (thank God) corrected. Not to mention some of the rigging horrors with people's reserves that surface a couple times a year. Simple fact of human nature is that some people never learn.

But as with anything new, there are sometimes the "surprise" scenarios that don't rear their ugly faces until even a few years pass. And that's why for now I think I'll give all the MARDS a pass and stick with my imperfect RSL, which "only" pulls my ripcord pin. The only time I ever used it, it had me to line stretch as I was finishing my ripcord pull and that impressed me just fine.

Please don't get me wrong - I'm VERY impressed with Skyhooks and MARDS, especially some of the real life cutaway vids. The one of the guy who spun up his canopy at Skydive Long Island is especially fantastic. It's just the thought of something snagging my reserve in a total situation that stops me in my tracks.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[JerryBaumchen 1,273]

Hi Tom,

Re: It's just the thought of something snagging my reserve in a total situation that stops me in my tracks.

You don't have an email in your profile; so would you send me an email and I can share some thoughts/info on this with you.

JerryBaumchen