Using riggers as a middleman

[mikedks 0]

Am trying to sell some gear in the classified and am close to completing a deal. Only issue is how to complete transaction to protect both buyer and seller. Dude wants me to use his rigger and I'm fine with that. Mind you, I don't know this guy or his rigger from anyone and they are halfway across the country from me. So we agree to use his rigger, he says he sent the rigger a cashier's check, I talk to rigger and he says send the gear. My response, hold on, who are you?, I asked for a copy of the check that can be verified, and a copy of his riggers license. He laughed, said everyone knows him, blah, blah, blah...
Maybe you guys can tell me the best way to complete a gear sale, and what is unreasonable to ask for? is asking for ID unreasonable? what about using third party rigging lofts?

Thanks

[Pokerstar 0]

The 'Everyone Knows Him' seems a little sketchy right there. Have you considered using paypal?

In a situation like this the 2 could easily be working together, and if he wont send you a copy of the check and his riggers license, I would not send the rig.

Fortunately, I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug, uh, regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber.
--- The Dude ---

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Generally you use someone you both trust. If you have never heard of this rigger maybe he is not the best guy to use. Why don't you ask your DZO if he has ever heard of the rigger. If not then ask him or your rigger if they know any reputable riggers in that city. Another choice would be the other guy's DZO.

[likestojump 3]

you situation is two-fold. You don't know his rigger. But does he know yours ? You don't want to be burned, but neither does the buyer.

for example I just got a rig 2 weeks ago, and I sent $2800 to the sellers rigger, and the rigger is holding on to the money until I get the rig and let him know that everything is ok. At the same time I can tell you most of the time I just paypal them the money after some verification and once I get the gear let them know all is ok (but if it wasn't , I have the option of chargeback)

Why don't you make some inquiries about who "his rigger" is. Perhaps he is really well known, just not to you, as you are fairly new ?
Paypal is a very good suggestion as well. And lastly, if all things fail - perhaps the transaction was not meant to be ...

good luck

[BIGUN 1,050]

I'm not sure I can fault the rigger for not sending you a copy of his license. Most of them are willing to show them to you, but like a social security card, sure as heck don't want to send you a copy. You might also take into account that he's doing it as a favor and not for pay, so really doesn't want to put a whole lot of hours into it.

Its really not that hard to establish bonafides in our circle. Surely, there's some old crusty fuck at your DZ who's been to enough boogies or DZ's around the country to validate. I live in Oklahoma and can reach out to the four corners of the country and ask someone, "Hey, do you know that bastard so and so...?"

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[mikedks 0]

There are several issues; first, I'm out of skydiving and have been for years. Am selling the rig that's been in the closet and I never got to jump. Plus, am more than a 1000 miles and many years from my last DZ. So, I don't have anyone to vouch for me or my own rigger or DZO.
second, his DZ is school affiliated and does not have a DZO, run by some sort of committee I guess.

what about using a well known rigging loft? probably fee's involved, im guessing.

[mikedks 0]

Quote

you situation is two-fold. You don't know his rigger. But does he know yours ? You don't want to be burned, but neither does the buyer.

for example I just got a rig 2 weeks ago, and I sent $2800 to the sellers rigger, and the rigger is holding on to the money until I get the rig and let him know that everything is ok. At the same time I can tell you most of the time I just paypal them the money after some verification and once I get the gear let them know all is ok (but if it wasn't , I have the option of chargeback)

Why don't you make some inquiries about who "his rigger" is. Perhaps he is really well known, just not to you, as you are fairly new ?
Paypal is a very good suggestion as well. And lastly, if all things fail - perhaps the transaction was not meant to be ...

good luck

Go to www.aboutpaypal.org and read about the issues and problems people have with paypal. Very scary!

[skybytch 259]

When I sell gear online, I ask that the buyer send me the money up front. Once it arrives I send the gear (although in most cases I've shipped it as soon as the buyer tells me the payment is on the way). I then hold the payment for a week or two so the buyer has time to get the item and have it checked out if they want to. Once they let me know they're happy, I cash the payment.

If someone insisted on using a rigger as a middleman, I'd only be comfortable doing it if the rigger is working out of an actual business - a gear store, a loft on a dz, etc. I think the seller is less likely to get jacked if they are dealing with a business than if they are dealing with Bob, who works out of his living room when he isn't busy with his full time job...

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

I always thought that the "rigger as a middleman" practice was based on using a rigger that both parties knew. Personally, 2nd hand (friend of a friend) or by reputation. If you don't know him, then I don't see that here. That is in no way suggesting that this is a scam, but I can see reasons for your hesitation.

The big gear shops will sell stuff on consignment, but they charge a fee.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[likestojump 3]

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Go to www.aboutpaypal.org and read about the issues and problems people have with paypal. Very scary!

that may have been true before ebay bought paypal, but is no longer so. This gets brought up many times during the year, just seach the threads. In fact, I can find you sites that are anti-Ford/Chevy/Toyota/Honda//Obama/Clinton/skydiving/masturbating/US government.... If you are looking for a biased opinion about a topic, they are great deterrents.

Paypal is a great tool, and myself with thousands of transactions and many, many others have no had problems. Of course, as always, buyer beware...

[mikedks 0]

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Go to www.aboutpaypal.org and read about the issues and problems people have with paypal. Very scary!

that may have been true before ebay bought paypal, but is no longer so. This gets brought up many times during the year, just seach the threads. In fact, I can find you sites that are anti-Ford/Chevy/Toyota/Honda//Obama/Clinton/skydiving/masturbating/US government.... If you are looking for a biased opinion about a topic, they are great deterrents.

Paypal is a great tool, and myself with thousands of transactions and many, many others have no had problems. Of course, as always, buyer beware...

I firmly believe in the power of the internet as a voice for the little guy; the great equalizer. Do a search for paypal and problems and you will see that many people have issues with Paypal. Granted, you can search for just about anything and find a grudge site, but in this instance, I don't believe thats the case. Paypal is a money transfer entity, how can there possibly be any issues with something as basic as this?

That being said, not here to argue about Paypal, I'm happy your experience with Paypal is good. I just don't believe in them for large transactions.

[likestojump 3]

Fair enough. I will stick to my opinion based on experience, you stick to your opinion based on opinion of the "little guy and their website" :)

Do you mind telling us who the rigger in question is ?

[slj678 0]

IMO this is a freakin joke. I got screwed out of not getting some gear because the guy wouldn't ship it to my rigger/DZO. What dzo is gonna risk his entire career for a few thousand dollar rig? I refuse to send that much money over paypal because paypal is not a physical person. If something screws up and I don't get my gear its gonna be a pain in the butt to go through all the crap thats needed to get reimbursed for your purchase. Whereas a dzo or rigger is a physical person with a physical address where they can be physically taken their happy ass to jail if they don't get their money.

"I didn't know they gave out rings at the holocaust"

[likestojump 3]

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IMO this is a freakin joke. I got screwed out of not getting some gear because the guy wouldn't ship it to my rigger/DZO. What dzo is gonna risk his entire career for a few thousand dollar rig? I refuse to send that much money over paypal because paypal is not a physical person. If something screws up and I don't get my gear its gonna be a pain in the butt to go through all the crap thats needed to get reimbursed for your purchase. Whereas a dzo or rigger is a physical person with a physical address where they can be physically taken their happy ass to jail if they don't get their money.

you did not get screwed out of anything. The seller had terms to their sale. You were not willing to follow them, thus the transaction did not happen. If it makes you feel better - YOU had terms to doing business - the seller was not willing to accept those terms, thus YOU chose not to do business with that seller.

Or did someone else make that choice for you ?

by the way, getting money back from paypal (as long as funded by credit card) is MUCH MUCH simpler than going after someone who has cashed your check. This is 100% FACT. Call your credit card and state what happened, the money will be refunded to you unless the seller can prove you received the product. If so, the credit card will ask you to ship teh product back to the seller and YOU WILL GET CREDIT THE FULL AMOUNT upon receipt.

A friend of mine was sold a rig with a Cypres that was stated to be near new - well, it had 2 years left on it. The seller refused to do anything about it - the Credit Card company told my friend to ship the rig back, and once they verified receipt he got full transaction amount credited back to his statement.

[ripcord4 0]

"It is no coincidence that in no known language does the phrase 'As pretty as an Airport' appear."
Douglas Adams

Anyone that says that has never been 18 minutes into a 20 minute fuel light when he breaks out of IFR conditions and sees the rabbit running 2 miles ahead of the aircraft!

[tombuch 0]

Your approach seems reasonable to me. The Internet can be a shady place to do business, so selecting a middleman that you both know and trust is a good idea. You should be able to verify the identity of the rigger, or alternatively select somebody else such as a DZ owner.

It's certainly reasonable for you to ask for a copy of the check, and for some way to confirm the rigger is who he says he is. He should be willing to send you a copy of his certificate, or otherwise help you confirm his identity.

One option is to check the FAA Airman Database at http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/interactive_airmen_inquiry/. That's the official FAA database that includes all certificate holders who have not opted out of disclosure. You do need to enter information about yourself to gain access, and then you can search by name and address/state or other criteria. It's also a good way to confirm the licenses issued to your DZ pilots. Be cautious, however, some pilots have opted out, and some may be listed by a more formal name. As an example, I'm listed as Thomas Buchanan, not Tom. If you do a national search you will find 26 Thomas Buchanan's, and would need to know my middle name or that I live in Vermont to correctly identify me.

So I'd say work with the seller to find a third party you can both agree on, or decline to make the purchase.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[LaRusic 0]

Im a big fan of using the rigger as a middle man, thats how i got my first set of gear and the rigger was also one of my instructors so he had a really good idea of what i would need and want.

As for paypal, i wouldnt wanna pay any other way, paypal is simple to use and safe. Just as an example i ordered a few things from an online store that uses paypal. the store never responded to any of my emails inquiring whether or not it would be delivered by christmas and never responded when i tried to cancel the order. so i went to paypal and disputed the transaction....12 days later after their investigation i had my money returned to me in full.

The Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless
Dudeist Skydiver # 10

[Chubba 0]

+1 for rigger as middle man.

dropzone.com seller sent a $6500 rig interstate to my rigger with no money upfront.

Got to check everything out, the rigger got me some new risers (small damage 3 rings on the infinity ones sent with it) and everybody got there money with absolutely no chance for either party to get screwed.

A lot of riggers are sellers for the major brands, I assume you can just give them a call to verify how legit they are.

I know bigway (karnage krew) from this site was always happy to give references from aerodyne etc.

[mikedks 0]

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Fair enough. I will stick to my opinion based on experience, you stick to your opinion based on opinion of the "little guy and their website" :)

Do you mind telling us who the rigger in question is ?

That's something my wife would say, little passive-aggressive jib. I always just say, "last word", as in, I just got the last word in, she hates it.

Doesnt really matter who the rigger is because I'm not sending my gear to him. I don't like how our conversations went, not what I was expecting, so I'm moving on.

[BUBLHED 0]

The rigger could be a total ass but who cares.
Why don't you ask on here if anyone knows him? He is surely known by someone and if it helps you sell your gear what do you have to loose? Cash is cash I don't care what the other persons personality is as long as I get my money.

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[slj678 0]

Yeah actually every instructor I have talked to said do NOT buy from anyone who will not let your rigger inspect it first... Why the hell would you not agree to those terms? Why would a dzo/rigger want anything to do with stealing somebodys money? Just doesn't make sense and sorry if you don't agree, but that seems like the safest way to go about things.

"I didn't know they gave out rings at the holocaust"

[Pokerstar 0]

Quote

"It is no coincidence that in no known language does the phrase 'As pretty as an Airport' appear."
Douglas Adams

Anyone that says that has never been 18 minutes into a 20 minute fuel light when he breaks out of IFR conditions and sees the rabbit running 2 miles ahead of the aircraft!

I am not a pilot, but, I shall change my sig line out of respect! :)

Fortunately, I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug, uh, regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber.
--- The Dude ---

[riggerrob 558]

Which rigger did he suggest?

As soon as you post, some-one on dz-com is bound to post a good/bad opinion about him/her.

No opinions mean that he/she is not an active rigger.

By the way, I have acted as a middleman in hundreds of gear transactions, initially at Square One and later for several other gear dealers. Not all the sellers enjoyed me telling about all the minor flaws on their rigs, but all the buyers appreciated my honesty.

Rob Warner
FAA Master Rigger

Rob

[AggieDave 6]

The rigger you're balking at is Todd Spillers. He's the DZO of SD Aggieland and a Regional Director for the USPA.

What are the chances Todd is going to put everything he has going on the line in an attempt to screw you out of some old gear for a new jumper? Pretty unlikely. Seriously.

When I've sold some gear that wasn't sold face to face, I've verified the person with their DZ and/or other jumpers that I personally know. That way I have a link with that person to be able to track them down if they bounce their check and to protect myself from a scam.

If another jumper wanted me to send gear to his/her rigger for pre-buy inspection then that's easy to verify. Where does the rigger jump or do business, who can vouch for the rigger? All that takes is a phone number for the references and a phone number for the rigger. Its not hard to follow up and verify things like this.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Chubba 0]

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By the way, I have acted as a middleman in hundreds of gear transactions, initially at Square One and later for several other gear dealers. Not all the sellers enjoyed me telling about all the minor flaws on their rigs, but all the buyers appreciated my honesty.

+1

Like I said above, my first set of gear the rigger found a TINY (couldn't even see it, had to be felt) scratch on one of the 3 rings that was gradually cutting into the white loop.

Seller didn't know about it, rigger rang the seller and told him to send me new/different risers which he did very promptly... everyones happy

I won't be doing a single transaction in the future without it going through him.