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SimpleJack

Have all the riggers started complaining yet?

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Sparky, when I checked simpledick's profile I noticed that too. Ten years in the sport and a D- lic. in the 5000's? I am a full time Master Rigger running my shop in Nor Cal. I'm not raising my rates until my rent go's up again. Why not get your rating, simpledick, and pack your own goddam racer?

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I don't keep both my rigs in date for the whole year. If they wouldn't have increased the pack cycle they both would be out Dec. 22nd. I'm not making a trip over the winter so I would've let them both go out. So I only had planned on packing twice this year to begin with. One of my riggers raised his rates last year to $55, wow $5 increase. My riggers aren't in it for the money, they have other jobs to pay their bills. It might be different at the bigger dz's where people do it for a living.
"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

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>But it's the same exact job. How much of an increase is it?

Around 40% or so. Varies.

>Isn't there anyone at your DZ that will do it for the same price?

I suspect there is. Many jumpers place more importance on things other than price when it comes to repacks, though. Feel free to use whoever you choose.

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NOT TRUE as Ron Edwards (founder of National Parachute Industries ,and the DPRE who gave me my rigging test back in the day) said until that seal is broken you are responsible for whatever is in there.



What FAR did Mr. Edwards cite?

What did he say the owner/operator's responsibility was?

I can open and close a National pilot rig without breaking the seal.

Mark

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Although I do not have my own rig, my thoughts on this are as such. You will pay thousands of dollars for a rig, but you bitch about an extra 15-20 dollars for a re-pack that you now have to do one less times a year... Just jump one time less on a Saturday, and there your go. Money saved, and the balance in the universe is restored once again.

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A rigger is responsible for delivering a parachute system that is airworthy. After that, the owner/operator is responsible for ensuring continued airworthiness, which includes pre-flighting equipment, knowing about and complying with new and recurring ADs and SBs, and returning equipment for maintenance if necessary.



Mark,
OK ...I'l bite the hook;)

What FAR states your claim to the above?


BS,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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A rigger is responsible for delivering a parachute system that is airworthy. After that, the owner/operator is responsible for ensuring continued airworthiness, which includes pre-flighting equipment, knowing about and complying with new and recurring ADs and SBs, and returning equipment for maintenance if necessary.



Mark,
OK ...I'l bite the hook;)

What FAR states your claim to the above?


BS,
MEL


You asked Mark, but I want to try too!

65.129(b) states that we may not "Pack a parachute that is not safe for emergency use".

Interestingly, this particular regulation doesn't specify reserve parachutes, so it sort of says that main parachutes must be safe for emergency use. Let's leave that for another discussion.

105.43(b).1 states that the reserve parachute must have been packed by a certified rigger "Within 120 days before the date of its use...".

The FAA website has not updated stuff yet to reflect the 180 day rule change.

105.45(b).2 states for a tandem rig "The reserve parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger in accordance with §105.43(b) of this part."

105.43(c) states that "If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

Nothing says that the rigger certifies the reserve is safe for emergency use except at the time of the required inspection and repack. Once handed back to the jumper, the responsibility passes away from the rigger.

105.43 begins by saying "No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows:"

This regulation puts the responsibility for airworthiness at the time of use on the user and/or the pilot.

105.45 says similar things about tandems.

Hey Mark, did I miss anything?

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Yes our rigger is charging 150.00 USD per repack now.>:(



HaHa, sucks to be you ;). I'm actually thinking about trading my Vector for a Racer. That'll put me in a similar boat as you, very few riggers to pick from. At least I won't have a Cypress.
"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

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65.129(b) states that we may not "Pack a parachute that is not safe for emergency use".



Paul,
If you look at the very begining of 65 it states "Certificate Required"

65.111 Certificate required.
top
(a) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating issued under this subpart and complies with §§65.127 through 65.133.

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person—

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;


In a nutshell, Part 65 is about riggers!

Nowhere, and I mean nowhere does it state in the regs that a owner/jumper is responsible for the airworthiness of a rig.

I charge anyone to show us that in a FAR or AC. It does not exsist!

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Nothing says that the rigger certifies the reserve is safe for emergency use except at the time of the required inspection and repack. Once handed back to the jumper, the responsibility passes away from the rigger.



Sure it does! It states that the rigger has to pack it! And the owner cannot pack the reserve, so that rules that out. Only one person certifies it for use, that would be the rigger, hence the "certificate required".


Again show us where it states (in black and white) where the owner is responsible.

You cannot "read into" the FAR's. You have to read them as they are written.


Cheers,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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65.129(b) states that we may not "Pack a parachute that is not safe for emergency use".



Paul,
If you look at the very begining of 65 it states "Certificate Required"

65.111 Certificate required.
top
(a) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating issued under this subpart and complies with §§65.127 through 65.133.

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person—

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;


In a nutshell, Part 65 is about riggers!

Nowhere, and I mean nowhere does it state in the regs that a owner/jumper is responsible for the airworthiness of a rig.

I charge anyone to show us that in a FAR or AC. It does not exsist!

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Nothing says that the rigger certifies the reserve is safe for emergency use except at the time of the required inspection and repack. Once handed back to the jumper, the responsibility passes away from the rigger.



Sure it does! It states that the rigger has to pack it! And the owner cannot pack the reserve, so that rules that out. Only one person certifies it for use, that would be the rigger, hence the "certificate required".


Again show us where it states (in black and white) where the owner is responsible.

You cannot "read into" the FAR's. You have to read them as they are written.


Cheers,
MEL



In your argument, you are confusing who does the work with who ensures that it is done.

65 says riggers do the work.
105 says jumpers and pilots ensure that the required work was done by a rigger at an appropriate time. They ensure compliance by checking the Packing Data Card, not by packing the rig.

105 says that a jumper or pilot must ensure that the rig was inspected in the last xx days. 105 says that the jumper or the pilot must ensure that the AAD manufacturer's requirements for service or battery life have been met.

105 does not say the rigger must ensure that the battery is good before a jump. It says the jumper or pilot must do that.

Again I say, ensuring that the work is done is not the same as doing the work.

The rigger does the work and logs it on the Packing Data Card.

The pilot and jumper check the Packing Data Card to see that the requirements for use have been met.

65 says who does the work.
105 is about checking the Packing Data Card.

105 says that on the day a jumper wants to use a rig, he must check the Packing Data Card to see that the rig was inspected within the required time. The rigger is not involved.

105 says that the jumper or pilot must ensure that the AAD was maintained according to the manufacturer's requirement. This means that the jumper must know if the CYPRES(1) battery is past 500 jumps. It says nothing about the rigger.

The only regulation that talks about AADs is 105, and 105 is about jumpers and pilots.

65 says the rig must be airworthy when the rigger packs it. It doesn't say it must stay airworthy any longer than that. If the canopy and harness and container are good, and the battery has not exceeded its specified life, I can close the rig.

105 says that the jumper and pilot must ensure compliance with inspection and service requirements.

Now, it is your turn. Show me the law that says the battery must last until the next inspection.

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I have heard no complains. But I am still not sure if I will raise my rates or not. I am leaning towards seeing what happens, and going with the flow.

I always suggest to unhappy people to get their own rigging ticket and not be subjected to the riggers whining.
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I could not agree more, and on the other hand it would be good for everyone to get their rigging tickets anyways.

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I’m interested to know if the riggers at your dropzone have threatened to raise their price on reserve repacks when the 180 day repack cycle goes into effect.

Have they began whining about what an unfair financial blow this is, that they can no longer charge you 3 times per year anymore. Have they moaned about how this will be a crushing financial blow that will put them out of business? BOO HOO!

Just curious.



*Nice dramatic projection. You are a talented troll. Rahspekt!!!

To answer the question... no they they haven't but apparently potential clients have... behold

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[CMiller]That is weird. I remember something about the price going down when demand goes down… I was ever that good at economics.



Did the demand go down? Not really. It seems though, that people who are concerned are not the riggers .
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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So then by your logic, if a rigger packs a reserve and accidentally leaves the molar strap on it, once it given back to the owner/user it's his or her responsibility?



No, because the rig was not safe for emergency use when it was returned to the owner/operator.

Try another example.

Mark

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so then ,by your logic, if a rigger packs a reserve and accidentally leaves the molar strap on it,once it given back to the owner/user its their responsibility?


No, that's not what he said.

FAR 65.129 says "No certificated parachute rigger may—(b) Pack a parachute that is not safe for emergency use;"

If the molar strap was still on, the rigger is already in violation, and is responsible.

For the purpose of what Mark said, you must presume that the rig was in compliance with the law at the time it was delivered.

Once that condition has been met, and the rig is delivered, the rigger has no further control.

If the owner then pours battery acid on the rig, it is not airworthy, seal or no seal.

The responsibility lies with the jumper.

Failure of that rig to perform as required is no longer on the rigger.

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The responsibility lies with the jumper



Paul,
The FAA is now beyond that point that you are trying to make. They now know that they need to write section for this.

Also,
From Part 105: Definitions

Parachute operation means the performance of all activity for the purpose of, or in support of, a parachute jump or a parachute drop. This parachute operation can involve, but is not limited to, the following persons: parachutist, parachutist in command and passenger in tandem parachute operations, drop zone or owner or operator, jump master, certificated parachute rigger, or pilot.

This links the rigger after he or she has packed the rig as they would not be jumping an un packed parachute!

A lot will come out at the PIA as they are targeting a solution by that time frame.

NOTE: Moderators, could someone cut and paste the posts from here regarding the pack cycle issues, over to the 180 day thread?


Thanks,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Several haven't threatened or whined; they have just plain raised their prices.



Not rasing mine. But then I dont do rigging to make money. I became a rigger because at the time there were few in my area but mostly, I like to know how things work and work on my own gear.

So, for those that use my services, price stays the same this year anyway
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Try some simple math.

$50x3=$150
$75x2=$150

Where's the extra out of pocket money? Why the hell should you get an extra $50 beer money a year out of the rigger's pocket?

Me, I split the benefit. Didn't go up to parity but did go up some. Not even half. Needed to anyway so I'm not really ahead.

And the damn pilots that supported the 180 day cylce because it would cost them less only get their rigs packed once a year anyway.:|

Best idea? Get your own damn ticket so we don't have to put up with you. Then you'll get exactly what you pay for.

B'bye



Seems it is NOT a rigger whining here.

So I have to tell you sir. Good post, well stated.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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