Skyhook

[base698 1]

The skyhook is a pretty recent invention. I always have the attitude that if someone hasn't been out five years you're a test jumper. That said it has been out for a long time and seems to be in wide use.

I see two cons to using one.

1) Any extra equipment has the possibility of being misrigged and there have been fatalities resulting from this.

2) The psychology of having a faster opening reserve could lead someone to try to fix a main longer than usual since they have a fast opening skyhook.

There is an obvious trade off in any new piece of safety equipment. I'm just wondering if this is a solution with unintended consequences we are seeing with all the low cutaways.

[Kirkk0herra 0]

Have I understood correctly that if -for example- one becomes entangled with the main skyhook will not allow cutaway and clearing the main before deploying reserve from a stable position?

[katzas 0]

base698

The skyhook is a pretty recent invention. I always have the attitude that if someone hasn't been out five years you're a test jumper. That said it has been out for a long time and seems to be in wide use.

I see two cons to using one.

1) Any extra equipment has the possibility of being misrigged and there have been fatalities resulting from this.

2) The psychology of having a faster opening reserve could lead someone to try to fix a main longer than usual since they have a fast opening skyhook.

There is an obvious trade off in any new piece of safety equipment. I'm just wondering if this is a solution with unintended consequences we are seeing with all the low cutaways.

Good comments and question. Having just ordered a brand new rig with a skyhook I did a lot of research and word of mouth. Here is what I found--and admittedly it is subjective.

You're right in your assessment that anything extra has more potential for screwups. Murphy gets another opportunity to show his talents. However, probabilities are valuable tools. I've had three chops in my life. All three were subterminal and well over 2000 ft agl. No rsl or skyhook.

Two of those were intentional after a malfunctioning main....but one..was not. After opening the main I felt nothing between my shoulders. My (conical) reserve was on it's way out with no AAD fire and the reserve handle still in the pocket (we never did figure out exactly why it happened). I immediately chopped--but one main riser was reluctant to leave. I cleared it manually and had an otherwise uneventful reserve ride. I was lucky. If I had a skyhook or even a two riser rsl it would not have been an issue--the reluctant riser would have been dragged away immediately.

I always watch my rigger when he repacks and inspects my reserve. If something doesn't look right to me I ask. Misrigging happens--but if I am watching it's my fault.

As to the psychology. I can't imagine someone delaying the decision to leave a malfunction because they know that their skyhook will get them under a reserve fast. I have seen the vids of skyhook reserve openings--and they are very fast. However, at least in my mind--the sooner I get rid of a canopy that isn't working the better. Riding a mal down to a grand or less is just plain stupid.

Bottom line--at least for me--skyhook works and I will have one in my brand new Icon. But I'll still pull two handles as high as I can if it becomes necessary.

[skydiverek 54]

Skyhook has been commercially available for the last 11 years.

[base698 1]

That's just my rule and why I never jumped on it when it came out. I knew I should have been more explicit :)

[Southern_Man 0]

katzas

As to the psychology. I can't imagine someone delaying the decision to leave a malfunction because they know that their skyhook will get them under a reserve fast. I have seen the vids of skyhook reserve openings--and they are very fast. However, at least in my mind--the sooner I get rid of a canopy that isn't working the better. Riding a mal down to a grand or less is just plain stupid.

It is worse than this, there are jumpers who post on here all the time about modifying their emergency procedures and lowering their hard-deck because they have a Skyhook. I think that is awful (and not the Skyhook's fault).

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[champu 1]

I think MARDs in general and the skyhook are good ideas and solid improvements on the standard RSL design.

I'm not convinced, however, that the Collin's lanyard addresses anything other than gear maintenance / construction errors and I'm not comfortable with the added complexity and potential failure modes it creates.

/edited: oops, phone typos.

[katzas 0]

Southern_Man

***

As to the psychology. I can't imagine someone delaying the decision to leave a malfunction because they know that their skyhook will get them under a reserve fast. I have seen the vids of skyhook reserve openings--and they are very fast. However, at least in my mind--the sooner I get rid of a canopy that isn't working the better. Riding a mal down to a grand or less is just plain stupid.

It is worse than this, there are jumpers who post on here all the time about modifying their emergency procedures and lowering their hard-deck because they have a Skyhook. I think that is awful (and not the Skyhook's fault).

When I first started jumping pull altitude was 2600 ft for freefall students and 2200 ft for "experienced". Back then I made it a practice to pull at 2400 ft or higher. My three cutaways were all between 2200 and 1800 ft. The lowest altitude I ever remember being under a fully inflated reserve was 1500 ft. That was a mighty short canopy ride to somebody's back yard just in time to share in the bar-b-cue.

Today I respect the higher pull altitude and see no reason whatsoever to push the envelope while struggling with a fubar main--especially one that is spinning you around while the ground gets a lot bigger really really quickly. Skyhook, garden variety rsl....I don't care. I will pull both handles in rapid succession and if the skyhook beats me to it--even better. I spent almost $300.00 extra for a skyhook in my new rig--but I have already forgotten that it is there.

[billbooth 10]

I agree with you. It takes about 5 years of actual use to really "prove out" a reserve system. The Skyhook passed that milestone six years ago. It's now been installed on over 30,000 rigs from 4 manufacturers and packed by riggers of all skill levels, all over the world. If we estimate an average of just 350 jumps on these rigs (some have none, many have thousands) then the skyhook has been along on over 10,000,000 jumps. USPA claims its members use their reserves every 565 jumps (3,000,000 jumps and 5,309 reserve uses in 2010). This means that the Skyhook has been "used", (one way or another) over 18,000 times. It is not "perfect" (nothing is), but it has certainly been the most "trouble free" device I have ever invented, including the hand deploy pilot chute and the 3-ring release.

[roostnureye 2]

billbooth

I agree with you. It takes about 5 years of actual use to really "prove out" a reserve system. The Skyhook passed that milestone six years ago. It's now been installed on over 30,000 rigs from 4 manufacturers and packed by riggers of all skill levels, all over the world. If we estimate an average of just 350 jumps on these rigs (some have none, many have thousands) then the skyhook has been along on over 10,000,000 jumps. USPA claims its members use their reserves every 565 jumps (3,000,000 jumps and 5,309 reserve uses in 2010). This means that the Skyhook has been "used", (one way or another) over 18,000 times. It is not "perfect" (nothing is), but it has certainly been the most "trouble free" device I have ever invented, including the hand deploy pilot chute and the 3-ring release.

Bill, I want to thank you for inventing the Skyhook, it has saved my life and I am very appreciative to have one in my micron. You are the man!

Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

[chuckakers 370]

Kirkk0herra

Have I understood correctly that if -for example- one becomes entangled with the main skyhook will not allow cutaway and clearing the main before deploying reserve from a stable position?

A Skyhook is no different than an RSL when it comes to a cutaway. You are correct that with EITHER a Skyhook or RSL, the reserve will be (or should be) deployed after a cutaway regardless of whether the main is free or entangled. However, it is possible to disengage the Skyhook by releasing the RSL shackle just as you can a traditional RSL for jumps where entanglements are a risk such as CRW, camera jumps, and jumps with special rigging.

The entanglement argument continues, but statistically the odds are better for a jumper with an RSL or Skyhook than without it. Even some camera flyers with full-size set-ups are going to RSL's and Skyhooks.

As for the "getting stable before deploying" argument, the stats are against that as well. The number of incidents that could have been prevented with an RSL or Skyhook FAR outpace the incidents caused by them. In fact, in my 30 years in the sport I have never personally known a single jumper who had a reserve deployment problem because of an unstable deployment from one of these devices.

I jumped for years without an RSL, early on because they weren't offered and later because I did a lot of camera work. Last summer one of my best skydiving buddies went in after chopping a highly-loaded, fast spinning main. I believe his demise may have been severe disorientation and partial or complete incapacitation from the spin. Had he been using an RSL he would likely be alive today.

I have 11 reserve rides - 10 after chops. Various situations and various body positions on each reserve opening. They all worked just fine. Stop worrying about stability after chopping. Wasting time after a cutaway is a much bigger risk than being unstable. Ever seen a drop test dummy leave an airplane stable? Me neither, yet the reserves still deploy just fine.

I got a new rig recently. It has an RSL and if a MARD is offered I'm sending it in for a retrofit.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[dudeman17 267]

billbooth

...but it has certainly been the most "trouble free" device I have ever invented...

It's distressing that I have to write this, but historical accuracy demands it. I have been skydiving for 35 years, and I am as big a fan of Bill Booth as anybody, and in no way do I mean to denigrate him or his contributions to our sport. But he did not invent the skyhook. He may have redesigned it for skydiving rigs, but the first MARD system was invented by Mark Hewitt, on a base rig called the Sorcerer, and Bill knows this. Credit is deserved where credit is due.

[riggerrob 558]

dudeman17

***...but it has certainly been the most "trouble free" device I have ever invented...

It's distressing that I have to write this, but historical accuracy demands it. I have been skydiving for 35 years, and I am as big a fan of Bill Booth as anybody, and in no way do I mean to denigrate him or his contributions to our sport. But he did not invent the skyhook. He may have redesigned it for skydiving rigs, but the first MARD system was invented by Mark Hewitt, on a base rig called the Sorcerer, and Bill knows this. Credit is deserved where credit is due.

.............................................................................

Yes, but Mark Hewitt invented a pin-type MARD, while Bill
Booth invented a hook-type MARD. Two radically-different RSLs that do the same job.

[dudeman17 267]

riggerrob

******...but it has certainly been the most "trouble free" device I have ever invented...

It's distressing that I have to write this, but historical accuracy demands it. I have been skydiving for 35 years, and I am as big a fan of Bill Booth as anybody, and in no way do I mean to denigrate him or his contributions to our sport. But he did not invent the skyhook. He may have redesigned it for skydiving rigs, but the first MARD system was invented by Mark Hewitt, on a base rig called the Sorcerer, and Bill knows this. Credit is deserved where credit is due.

.............................................................................

Yes, but Mark Hewitt invented a pin-type MARD, while Bill
Booth invented a hook-type MARD. Two radically-different RSLs that do the same job.


Like I said, Bill may have redesigned it, and I appreciate that, and I appreciate as much as anybody what Bill has contributed to our sport. I just thought that if the word 'invented' was being used in this thread, then Mark deserved mention. And I hope you and others can appreciate that.

[pchapman 261]

Hang on, the Sorcerer didn't have a disconnect for a 'normal' reserve activation did it?

That's integral to the concept of a full MARD. I'm not sure if it fits in the definition of a MARD or just our understanding of a proper and complete modern MARD.

Of course Bill & company would be the inventors of the "Skyhook" specifically, that particular brand.

Sometimes we could use a wiki where everyone could receive the appropriate credit for the development of a particular style of device.

A lot of this stuff about the origin of the MARD was hashed out in an earlier thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4524970;

From that, Mark Hewitt actually made a deal with Bill Booth. But it isn't clear from that whether Mark either had a disconnectable system, or had a working concept for a disconnectable system. Just based on the thread, Mark's contribution is unclear, and I don't think Bill Booth has addressed that.

(Sort of like Thomas Edison, despite being brilliant and running the show, didn't actually invent everything exclusively by himself.)

Also, the "LES" MARD by Eric Fradet in Basik rigs supposedly pre-dated (1999) the Skyhook (2003?), although it was later taken off the market. (Thank you Skydiverek for mentioning it before.) Eric isn't a fan of MARDs now, based on his very occasional Dz.com posts.

More info on the LES would be interesting to see. Eric's MARD patents are out there, but he patented a whole bunch of variations, perhaps trying to cover all the bases.

[base698 1]

My main concern is the number two aspect of people lowering the hard deck. I remember listening to you discuss all the ways skydivers try to kill themselves after a new invention. I just don't remember there being a rash of people dying from low cutaways back 12 years ago. It seems the incidents the skyhook should help in are increasing.

I can't imagine the skyhook has saved more people than the three ring.

[dudeman17 267]

The Sorcerer did indeed have a disconnect for a 'normal' reserve activation. It had a pud on the left shoulder that when pulled, disconnected the lanyard from the main riser, opened the container, extracted a hand deployed pilot chute and deployed the reserve independently as a pull-out type system.

[mirage62 0]

FWIW, I spoke w Bill a few weeks ago about his thoughts on lower cut always due to having a skyhook. The basics of the discussion was that he wouldn't lower his cut away decision height a foot lower if he had a skyhook. He also said that nothing was infallible and you had to respond as if you didn't have it.

Wise words from a wise man!

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[skydiverek 54]

dudeman17

The Sorcerer did indeed have a disconnect for a 'normal' reserve activation. It had a pud on the left shoulder that when pulled, disconnected the lanyard from the main riser, opened the container, extracted a hand deployed pilot chute and deployed the reserve independently as a pull-out type system.

Correct.

[skydiverek 54]

pchapman

Also, the "LES" MARD by Eric Fradet in Basik rigs supposedly pre-dated (1999) the Skyhook (2003?), although it was later taken off the market. (Thank you Skydiverek for mentioning it before.) (...)

More info on the LES would be interesting to see.

Peter - please see the attached photos of LES, with Basik's comments from year 2007.

[gregpso 1]

Bill I too want to thank you for inventing skyhook ... unfortunately it trashed my jumping adventures in Australia as I promoted it heavily on Aussie forums.

Result banned at Skydive Nagambie (you should have seen the look on the CI's face when I asked "are there skyhooks on the student rigs?) That was the beginning of the end for me though certainly not the only factor.. I then got accussed of being sexist cause I warned woman about the attention they would receive in a male dominated sport.

Would I do it again ? YES YES a thousand times YES Bill you can PM me and I will supply my bank account details for the royalty check for australian sales. LOL This really is my last word. I started with skyhook post and I finish with skyhook post

I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

[Hellis 0]

gregpso

Bill I too want to thank you for inventing skyhook ... unfortunately it trashed my jumping adventures in Australia as I promoted it heavily on Aussie forums.

Result banned at Skydive nagambie and not welcome at many other Aussie dzs.

Would I do it again ? YES YES a thousand times YES Bill you can PM me and I will supply my bank account details for the royalty check for australian sales. LOL

I knew you would be back.

This is not a 'Aussie forum', I believe it's a South African forum.
But you were correct on the south hemisphere.

Quote

This really is my last word. I started with skyhook post and I finish with skyhook post

All your posts has been Skyhook related.

[danornan 64]

mirage62

FWIW, I spoke w Bill a few weeks ago about his thoughts on lower cut always due to having a skyhook. The basics of the discussion was that he wouldn't lower his cut away decision height a foot lower if he had a skyhook. He also said that nothing was infallible and you had to respond as if you didn't have it.

Wise words from a wise man!

Maybe I'm not listening, at least I think that's what my wife says, but, I've NEVER heard anyone say that because of their emergency devises, ( AAD, Skyhook, RSL, etc.) they were lowering their opening altitude. Maybe in jest, but not in actuality.

Dano

[Andy9o8 0]

danornan

***FWIW, I spoke w Bill a few weeks ago about his thoughts on lower cut always due to having a skyhook. The basics of the discussion was that he wouldn't lower his cut away decision height a foot lower if he had a skyhook. He also said that nothing was infallible and you had to respond as if you didn't have it.

Wise words from a wise man!

Maybe I'm not listening, at least I think that's what my wife says, but, I've NEVER heard anyone say that because of their emergency devises, ( AAD, Skyhook, RSL, etc.) they were lowering their opening altitude. Maybe in jest, but not in actuality.

First, few people would admit it even if they recognized it. Second, the post to which you're responding refers to cutaway hard deck, not main opening hard deck.

So yeah, +1 to your wife.

[danornan 64]

What did you say? :-)

Same with cutaways.... Never heard that either!

I have cutaway quite a bit lower than 1500, but it was because that was my only choice. Either that or two out and I felt that with a canopy above my head, just ugly, that was the better alternative. I did have a Sky Hook, but was not thinking of it at the time.

Dano