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CrazyL

Should people be banned for doing hookturns in certain places?

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I think you're way over-engineering this. (But I loved the phrase "banned wagon" :D ). As Sparky said, it's the DZO's crib. What higher-risk jumpers seem to forget, when they bitch about conservative DZO's, is that when there's a fatality, it's not just on the jumper who goes in, it's also on the DZO that has to deal with the aftermath. And that aftermath can be considerable: bad press, lawsuits, trouble with the local cops & govt, lawsuits, hostility from the neighbors, lawsuits. Of course you have the right to choose your own risk level, as we all do. But the DZO also has the right to choose how much risk HE is willing to take that HE will have to deal with a fatality. It's really that simple.

Perris has had fatalities since when Sparky, the 70's. That dz is rock'n. And the guy that bounced the day I got banned, I was paying him my respects as an airman. He got a high fly by from me. He was an off duty cop. Tell me about local cops, there were a bunch there and at his funeral. The dead guy and me have something in common, we're both war vets, both decorated, both hookturners, both play in the anything goes area of the dz. Personally I think the guy took the ' anything goes' area a bit too far. And it really is about 'risk management' is'nt it. Dz's deal with fatalities so do race tracks and several other sports facilities.

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You wouldn't be banned for life if you followed the rules. (GASP, OH NO!! FOLLOWING THE RULES?!!!!)

It doesn't sound like hook turning is banning you. Hook turning when the DZO doesn't want you to or when/where it isn't appropriate is getting you banned. There are a few places that either used to ban or have banned hook turns in general because they're killing people.

Plenty of opportunity to do high performance landings. But hooking it becaue you HAVE TO is the wrong answer.

Your sarcastic right?

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Hey CrazyL, are you the same Crazy Larry who likes to wear colorful clothing?



That would probally be the same one!

Hey lary you know you are welcomed here at SDD. You have lots of friens here;)


If that's the case, then his landing approaches are fine unless he really did go crazy.


You are correct!!! His landing are fine/safe for him!!! His type of landing can be dangeroius if performed by the wrong person. But he is very safe while performing his landings! He's like me in the way that he will not take someones shit if he dose not desearve it!!!!
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears from your posts that you hookturned without first checking with the DZO on what the rules are. Each DZ is different. The rules have tightened up a lot in some places after the Dublin, GA debacle last year.

Wrong, your so wrong. That morning the chief instructor at the school and I had a talk about the 'new' landing area arrangement. A 3rd of the landing area had been fenced off and is no longer used by the dz. New drawings of the layout were posted. He showed me. I did as he ask and helped 'spread the word' The pond area is still 'anything goes'. I've got a few years at this dz. got the rules down pretty good, and abide by them.

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Hey CrazyL, are you the same Crazy Larry who likes to wear colorful clothing?



That would probally be the same one!

Hey lary you know you are welcomed here at SDD. You have lots of friens here;)


If that's the case, then his landing approaches are fine unless he really did go crazy.


You are correct!!! His landing are fine/safe for him!!! His type of landing can be dangeroius if performed by the wrong person. But he is very safe while performing his landings! He's like me in the way that he will not take someones shit if he dose not desearve it!!!!
Yes it's me. in trouble at a dz for some dumbass reason I feel I don't desreve. Kept my mouth shut for the most part about this. People in the know no. But now it's been over 90 days, the dzm,dzo, chief instructor/ s&ta have yet to email me back or call me back, These guys are f'n professionals.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears from your posts that you hookturned without first checking with the DZO on what the rules are. Each DZ is different. The rules have tightened up a lot in some places after the Dublin, GA debacle last year.

Wrong, your so wrong. That morning the chief instructor at the school and I had a talk about the 'new' landing area arrangement. A 3rd of the landing area had been fenced off and is no longer used by the dz. New drawings of the layout were posted. He showed me. I did as he ask and helped 'spread the word' The pond area is still 'anything goes'. I've got a few years at this dz. got the rules down pretty good, and abide by them.



I stand corrected after reading your further posts.

I know you didn't name the DZ you're talking about, but I bet its Elsinore, from the details you mentioned.
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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'Right time and place' happened at the last dz. There was a fatality in the landing area. I came no closer than 200' to the fatality. DZM had alot on his plate.



You don't think this speaks loudly for less-than-rational judgement?

Uh, about speaking loudly. There was and has been non of that. And will not be tolerated. Do you think that the dz should be sending airplanes up when there is a fatality in the landing area that had been there for over 3 hours? They put the crime scene tape up around the fella. I never crossed that line , nor came close enough to that line to cross it. But I heard later that day as homie is into his 5th hour in the sweltering heat under a tarp in the landing area with a crime scene tape marking his area, a jumper landed so close to the crime scene tape that he tripped and fell right through it the tape and into the crime scene area. He did not get banned like I did. I never heard any announcemnts prior to my jump that any other landing area had been closed. A crime scene tape, it's pretty obvious that you must heed that space and don't even go there. So I did'nt. After I had landed they were making announcements and later that day a jumper actually crossed the line? Are you kidding me?

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Just curious, what degree of hook turns are you doing? Just going by jump numbers I'm going to assume 270 or greater..?

That was a little one, a 270 because I was seeing the congestion in the main landing area and did'nt want any part of it, pond was clear I did'nt want to fly over anything I did'nt want to land on. Did'nt fly over the police and their cars. Would not have landed there had there been an anouncemnt to not land there period.

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Your screen name may hold a clue to your being banned. ;)

Hi Chuck, long time no see, remember at your dz when all the people would go out on the tarmac and I would do 180's up high and dive at them , dumbasses they could've been killed. They enjoyed it that's why they went there. Me too. The first part of my screen name was earned for doing hookturns back in 1992, where were you?

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Hey CrazyL, are you the same Crazy Larry who likes to wear colorful clothing?



That would probally be the same one!

Hey lary you know you are welcomed here at SDD. You have lots of friens here;)
Thanks, I know that's right! No haters there! I'll be back soon enough. For every 2 weekends i'm not jumping here in SoCal can buy me a trip and a good time at your dz. Already looking at tickets for the next trip. $304 rt,

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As an avid aggressive hookturner for over 15 years i've been good at hookturns. Been grounded for doing hookturns years ago. Probably saved my life and/or medical expenses. Been banned at 4 dz's the reasonfor each dz is hookturns. 2nd dz I was banned at called and invited me to their 1st ever pond swoop meet 3 years after being banned, won a canopy, sweet, had my freedom back, sweet. 3rd dz I was banned at had swoop week 8 years later, could'nt go 'cause i'm banned for life for hookturns 8 years ago. The latest dz this past June the dzm called me and said 'so, tell me about your little hookturn over the pond' ? Couple of minutes later it's 'your not welcomed at this dz anymore'. So, what are these dz's condoning here? So what should I do, stop doing 'little hookturns over the swoop pond'? stop doing hookturns? I'm so dang addicted to the hookturn, should I stop skydiving? Should I hop on the banned wagon and condone the banning of hookturns and the people that do them? I have yet to cause injury or death to anyone from doing hookturns and/or skydiving over 6,000 times. Should I only jump at dz's that fully understand that skydiving may cause serious injury or death? What about the waiver, I signed it, medical insurance, got it and 4 other types of insurance. Also got 6 canopies that are excellent technological advancements so I can enjoy hookturns when I skydive. What to do...



The way I see it, if a problem arises with one person/DZ, it's a fluke, shit happens. But when you describe being banned from 4 DZs due to hook turns, it's no longer a fluke, it's a trend. The common theme in the story is you, so instead of casting blame on the DZs that banned you, might be better to figure out exactly why you are being banned from so many places and address the issue in a constructive manner.

Oh, and about this:
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I have yet to cause injury or death to anyone from doing hookturns and/or skydiving over 6,000 times.



I bet Danny Page could have said something similar too. See how well that worked out.[:/] Jump numbers don't mean you're infallable and they won't save you.
1st dz was in 1993, second in 1996, 3rd in 2000, 4th in 2008. trend? same problem, hookturns. i realize the reason. i'm addicted and need help that's why i'm here for you to bash me. Danny Page you arrogant punk RIP. How the hell did I get crap for what Danny did? peregrinrose clean up your deal. Don't blame me for your 's or Danny's mistakes.

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1989., they haven't been invented a law against my way...
and I've made 20% of $2.5M.
- at the time, there wasn't anybody for me to discuss with...
...but there is a law today.

I can't guess why Larry is interested in anybody's opignion
but there's no chance WE are of ANY help to him...
'cause vr not there [:/]

so why, Oh why, Larry?.. are you asking us?

Is there code in your post? Can you please guess why Larry is interested. What is 'cause vr not here' good you made some money, me too. Got a dz that I can have my freedom to skydive hard?

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You could land off and do whatever the hell you want... 15 minute walk would be the price to pay but freedom is priceless;)

Even better , how about land in a designatd landing area for crazies like me. The pattern was totally clear, it was the right and perfect airspace for the approach to landing, in the 'anything goes area' mandated by the dz policies.

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"CRAZYL" Man let it go about the hookturns your in every post ranting about how its not fair, dude!!! if you dont like the rules open your own dz and make your own rules

it seems like half the skydiving fatalitys are all low turn realted some way or another
seems like we found a slight way to minimize the fatality rate "NO LOW TURNS" sounds fair to me

i dont hookturn so i really dont worry about it, if its your cup of tea and you dont get me killed while your doing it im cool with it, if your hurt or kill yourself...well that was your choice, i think your missing the point of what everyone is saying here...
kill yourself doing stupid things not others in the process this may be the reason you have been banned so many times....
dont get me wrong i dont want to see anyone hurt or killed enjoying this sport but skydiving is a safe as we make it.....

Your the first to post about 'unfair' . Your also the only one who has taken a general appraoch and an all encompassing of all posters thoughts to come up with your post. There are major defects in what is in your post and what is in this thread. hangout you might learn something from an avid hookturner.

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'Right time and place' happened at the last dz. There was a fatality in the landing area. I came no closer than 200' to the fatality. DZM had alot on his plate.



You don't think this speaks loudly for less-than-rational judgement?

Uh, about speaking loudly. There was and has been non of that. And will not be tolerated. Do you think that the dz should be sending airplanes up when there is a fatality in the landing area that had been there for over 3 hours? They put the crime scene tape up around the fella. I never crossed that line , nor came close enough to that line to cross it. But I heard later that day as homie is into his 5th hour in the sweltering heat under a tarp in the landing area with a crime scene tape marking his area, a jumper landed so close to the crime scene tape that he tripped and fell right through it the tape and into the crime scene area. He did not get banned like I did. I never heard any announcemnts prior to my jump that any other landing area had been closed. A crime scene tape, it's pretty obvious that you must heed that space and don't even go there. So I did'nt. After I had landed they were making announcements and later that day a jumper actually crossed the line? Are you kidding me?




The body is still laying in the landing area and the dz is putting up loads?! That's sounds quite f**ked up right there! Why the hell was the body left there for 3 hours anyways!

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i think your missing the point of what everyone is saying here
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Not everyone.

There are guys who are xtremly xtreme and safe:
at the same time.
Who's to say I'm full of it?

Let's wait some years and see.
_____________________________________
meantime I don't see what he's looking for

Not really looking. Just gathering opinions. Also gathering data on dz's I can jump at when i'm on tour and which ones I can't if I want to have the freedom that skydiving has given me for such a long time. Don't care to blame anyone but me, it's my fault that I skydive and do outrages gnarly hookturns. Sorry, the way I do an approach to landing IS very hazardous for anyone else, I would'nt suggest it. In the past jumpers have ask me to teach the art of hookturns and I declined everytime, why do I care to teach anyone how to do the one thing in skydiving that is the most major killer of skydivers. I was told I was the example. That's one reason why I never became a rating holder. I'm a fun jumper. I pay my way. My cameras have paid for many jumps in which i've done hookturns. I don't teach students, i'm not their example of how to land a parachute. Although have you ever seen an instructor doning a hookturn prior to landing?

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'Right time and place' happened at the last dz. There was a fatality in the landing area. I came no closer than 200' to the fatality. DZM had alot on his plate.



You don't think this speaks loudly for less-than-rational judgement?

Uh, about speaking loudly. There was and has been non of that. And will not be tolerated. Do you think that the dz should be sending airplanes up when there is a fatality in the landing area that had been there for over 3 hours? They put the crime scene tape up around the fella. I never crossed that line , nor came close enough to that line to cross it. But I heard later that day as homie is into his 5th hour in the sweltering heat under a tarp in the landing area with a crime scene tape marking his area, a jumper landed so close to the crime scene tape that he tripped and fell right through it the tape and into the crime scene area. He did not get banned like I did. I never heard any announcemnts prior to my jump that any other landing area had been closed. A crime scene tape, it's pretty obvious that you must heed that space and don't even go there. So I did'nt. After I had landed they were making announcements and later that day a jumper actually crossed the line? Are you kidding me?




The body is still laying in the landing area and the dz is putting up loads?! That's sounds quite f**ked up right there! Why the hell was the body left there for 3 hours anyways!

Was retarded. So close to the loading area. The last plane I was on we loaded the plane was facing away from the lake. As we turned onto the runway he was so close, it was so frigg'n eerie. Was also over 120 degrees in that airplane. I said out loud ' we're all f---k-n nuts, we're all crazy, don't even know why he did'nt make it.' They say he was out there for so long because of being a police officer and with that is a lengthy investigation. I did'nt want to jump I wanted to leave and then vroom we took off. I jumped like a dumbass selfish skydiver and made the most of it as if it were my last. Had no idea it would be my last at that dz because i'd be banned. In hinesight, I put a little blame on the dz for lack of announcements prior to sending that first load after homie bounced. A little blame for sending loads while a fatality is well so close to the people and in the main part of the onlly other proper landing area other than the main landing area. Mostly blame myself for going through with jumping while being smack dab in the middle of a traumatic situation.

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Is there code in your post? Can you please guess why Larry is interested. What is 'cause vr not here' good you made some money, me too. Got a dz that I can have my freedom to skydive hard?



Sorry for coding, really.

I had to wait 10 years to sit and chat with somebody able to grasp what I was doing before.
Simply because I was ahead of a time, hence misunderstood and lonely.

By saying "we're not there" I meant - your asking seems futile
because most of "us" can only dream of such jumps#/Uturns#
and worse - some are frightened! (not me... yet)

So, it's like Billy Gates asking some corner salesmen for Wall street advice.

I wish you luck but expect no good answer unless in person with your kind!
__________________________________
as soon as I get my dz ur wellcome
What goes around, comes later.

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That's sounds quite f**ked up right there! Why the hell was the body left there for 3 hours anyways!



It’s not the DZ’s call. The body will stay put until the coroner is done with his/her investigation. It’s that way with a fatality in a car wreck a plane crash etc.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Hookturns shouldn't be banned. Everyone knows how dangerous they can be and still there are people who do them. There are swoop competitions, aren't there? So it's better to teach jumpers how to do hook turns correctly. The same applies to skdydiving in general. (I'm not a swooper and probably will never be one.)

Going on jumping when there is a fatality on the dz is another thing. I wouldn't jump. I just couldn't enjoy it.
For the dzo it may be business or "show must go on" but for me it's not.

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Is there code in your post? Can you please guess why Larry is interested. What is 'cause vr not here' good you made some money, me too. Got a dz that I can have my freedom to skydive hard?



Sorry for coding, really.

I had to wait 10 years to sit and chat with somebody able to grasp what I was doing before.
Simply because I was ahead of a time, hence misunderstood and lonely.

By saying "we're not there" I meant - your asking seems futile
because most of "us" can only dream of such jumps#/Uturns#
and worse - some are frightened! (not me... yet)

So, it's like Billy Gates asking some corner salesmen for Wall street advice.

I wish you luck but expect no good answer unless in person with your kind!
__________________________________
as soon as I get my dz ur wellcome

I here what you mean. I'm fortunate to have been able to reach such high numbers in skydiving. My skydiving bill since I started is somewhere over $200,000. Have no real complaints about the journey. learned alot about people, and a little bit about skydiving. Still learning. Got a hand full of friends out of the soon to be 17 years of jumping avidly. Made haters out of several skydivers. Mostly riggers who were doing some wierd rigging and ex girlfriends, had my share of arrogant a-holes. Have given back to many a skydiver, saved several lives. Done alot of canopy flying. I learned static line jumps first which was a big help I think for learning to fly and land the parachute. 10 second delays were really exciting. getting over 4500ft was exciting. Thanks for inviting me to your future dz and not banning me before you open your future dz.You may find on these forums that there are jumpers of all levels here. 100 jump wonders, newbies, and 6000 jump wonders like me. Some may wonder what i'll do next in skydiving. I'll let you know a secret, it'll be fun , exhilerating, ruthless, powerful, playful with skills,dreamy,smooth, ending with a hardcore outrages as if it were my last time series of speed building manuevers to launch my soul at the earth at a high rate of speed and glide along the edge of heaven and hell very possibly with one foot above my head and one foot making a trail in some hard packed dirt kicking up a rooster tail with my ass about 2 inches off the ground cruising at over 60mph just for my own selfish flight of fancy. Why? 'cause that's what I get off on. That's my adrenaline sport. After sliding to a comfy smooth stop and casually picking my canopy out of the sky not letting it even touch the ground, it is then that can feel my heart beating, can feel the thick blood moving through my arteries and veins, body vibrating occasionally trembling. Brings clarity and relief to my senses. I will be satisfied. That is why, my satisfaction is guaranteed, i'll make sure of that. and then i'll get on a 20 minute call to give it another shot. Dream on li'l bird dream on.

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That's sounds quite f**ked up right there! Why the hell was the body left there for 3 hours anyways!



It’s not the DZ’s call. The body will stay put until the coroner is done with his/her investigation. It’s that way with a fatality in a car wreck a plane crash etc.

Sparky

That's right. Sending loads is the dz's call. That's why we were there to jump our asses off. I had 12 jumps to do and going for it. It'd been a little different had homie bounced down by the lake or in the lake, the landing area at the dz would've been clear but that was'nt the deal. Homie delt with a mal till he was over the landing area near the pond then took up another chunk of the landing area. If your gonna go in at Elsinore do it away from the landing area so others can continue to jump and not get banned for landing within a ahalf mile of your dead corpse. That's part of what I learned from this experience. And the corpsman will take as long as they need.

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