jsvadeboncoeur 0 #1 November 30, 2008 Hi there, I juste got a Micron vector with cypres and a Pdr-143 in it. I am looking to buy a Sabre II 150 as main canopy. I am 145-150 lb. and have 25 jumps so far. I have 5 of them on a Spectre 150 wich I liked it alot. I don't know much about skydiving gear so I would like to get as much advice as I can get... My Instructor at my dropzone is telling me that I need a Sabre II 150... He's telling me that in my case, if I buy a Spectre 150 I'll be bored in less than another 25 jump... What do you guyz think? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #2 November 30, 2008 I think the spectre and sabre2 are quite similar in many ways and a 150 in either of them is a bit of an aggressive choice for a first canopy. Personally I prefer the way the sabre2 lands and the way the spectre opens. I chose a sabre2 after demoing both. I'd highly recommend demoing anything before you buy it. Don't be afraid to go a size bigger too. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #3 November 30, 2008 QuoteHi there, I juste got a Micron vector with cypres and a Pdr-143 in it. I am looking to buy a Sabre II 150 as main canopy. I am 145-150 lb. and have 25 jumps so far. I have 5 of them on a Spectre 150 wich I liked it alot. I don't know much about skydiving gear so I would like to get as much advice as I can get... My Instructor at my dropzone is telling me that I need a Sabre II 150... He's telling me that in my case, if I buy a Spectre 150 I'll be bored in less than another 25 jump... What do you guyz think? Thanks A Spectre or Sabre2 170 would be more appropriate. Save the 150 for your second canopy after you've learned how to safely make low turns and may have gotten into a situation (landing out after a bad spot on the sunset load) where you need the extra square footage. http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsvadeboncoeur 0 #4 November 30, 2008 I first tought I would buy a 170 main but The guy keeps telling me not to buy something over 150... I think he's reallly qualified since he has more than 16,000 jump... That's why I am confused... And a ratio of 1:1 is not good for me??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #5 November 30, 2008 A max ratio of 1:1 is what most would advise, yes. You´d be loading a 150 at 1.15 however if 150 lbs is your body weight not your exit weight. A 150 is a high performance canopy just because of its size so as a medium- to lightweight jumper you want to start off on a lighter wingload than a heavier jumper would. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #6 November 30, 2008 All 150's are considered high performance, regardless of wingloading. I do know two women that jump Sabre 1-150's right off student status but they only weigh 100 lbs.. If you thought about a 170 you're probably right. That 1:1 logic has limits, 100 lbs. girl on a 99 would be bad."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #7 November 30, 2008 I'm 150lbs and I ended up going the Sabre2 170 despite most jumpers telling me to get a 150. I'm very happy with it, flies great Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsvadeboncoeur 0 #8 November 30, 2008 ok so now How do I figure out if a 170 will fit in my container? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #9 November 30, 2008 you can : do what everyone else does, and be helpless and useless and plead for the information on the forums OR you can look at the manufacturers webiste, take 10 seconds to locate the chart, and look it up yourself http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24 I suggest option2, but being a cynic I expect you to go with option1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3331 108 #10 December 1, 2008 Look here for all you need http://jumpshack.com/ I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #11 December 1, 2008 Kind of ironic that everybody is always all over the: "Ask you instructor" line but as soon as it's about WL, everybody seems to know better then the instructor. On Topic: If you have a gear store on site, ask them for a demo. They will generally have contacts with the manufacturers and should be able to get you a canopy to demo it. If there is no store, just call up the manufacturers and ask them to send one straight to you. That way you can actually try a few canopies (for a very small fee, usually a fraction of what a rental would cost) and then get to buy what you like most. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #12 December 1, 2008 QuoteKind of ironic that everybody is always all over the: "Ask you instructor" line but as soon as it's about WL, everybody seems to know better then the instructor. I find it hard to believe that someone is going to get bored with a 150 at 100 jumps total. What are the odds he's going to be proficient at the items on BillVons downsize list? Doing each thing once and crossing it off the list isn't the intention. If his instructor says he's okay with a 150 then maybe he is, for now. He's not going to be ready to get rid of it in 50 jumps either, so I wonder what the instructor has to sell him."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hausse 0 #13 December 1, 2008 Never said you were wrong, just thought the change of mind people seem to have in the instructor vs. WL debate seems to be interesting and noteworthy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gearless_chris 1 #14 December 1, 2008 Absolutely."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #15 December 1, 2008 It may be worthwhile to try the storm. I'm basing that off what people say, not what I know. Hoping I can demo one in a couple of weeks. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #16 December 1, 2008 QuoteI first tought I would buy a 170 main but The guy keeps telling me not to buy something over 150... I think he's reallly qualified since he has more than 16,000 jump... That's why I am confused... And a ratio of 1:1 is not good for me??? Knowing the instructors at the DZ (Daniel, or Michel?), I would respect their opinion. They know you, we dont. Danile may be on the aggressive side, so if its him, have a chat with Michel and see what he thinks. (or is Michel at Nouvel Air only, and Daniel over at Montreal now?)Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rstanley0312 0 #17 December 1, 2008 What are the odds he's going to be proficient at the items on BillVons downsize list? Doing each thing once and crossing it off the list isn't the intention. If his instructor says he's okay with a 150 then maybe he is, for now. He's not going to be ready to get rid of it in 50 jumps either, so I wonder what the instructor has to sell him. He will not be proficient and thaqt is the problem. I spent most of my first 100 jumps under a PD 254 (exit weight of 225) before I downsized and even now I may be doing it too soon. I think people pushing jumpers to downsize too fast is a BIG problem and I hate to hear instructors do so???? A 170 will be fun and plenty for you to handle! I would never be loading above a 1 with a little over 25 jumps. Blues!! RobLife is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #13 December 1, 2008 Never said you were wrong, just thought the change of mind people seem to have in the instructor vs. WL debate seems to be interesting and noteworthy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #14 December 1, 2008 Absolutely."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #15 December 1, 2008 It may be worthwhile to try the storm. I'm basing that off what people say, not what I know. Hoping I can demo one in a couple of weeks. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #16 December 1, 2008 QuoteI first tought I would buy a 170 main but The guy keeps telling me not to buy something over 150... I think he's reallly qualified since he has more than 16,000 jump... That's why I am confused... And a ratio of 1:1 is not good for me??? Knowing the instructors at the DZ (Daniel, or Michel?), I would respect their opinion. They know you, we dont. Danile may be on the aggressive side, so if its him, have a chat with Michel and see what he thinks. (or is Michel at Nouvel Air only, and Daniel over at Montreal now?)Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #17 December 1, 2008 What are the odds he's going to be proficient at the items on BillVons downsize list? Doing each thing once and crossing it off the list isn't the intention. If his instructor says he's okay with a 150 then maybe he is, for now. He's not going to be ready to get rid of it in 50 jumps either, so I wonder what the instructor has to sell him. He will not be proficient and thaqt is the problem. I spent most of my first 100 jumps under a PD 254 (exit weight of 225) before I downsized and even now I may be doing it too soon. I think people pushing jumpers to downsize too fast is a BIG problem and I hate to hear instructors do so???? A 170 will be fun and plenty for you to handle! I would never be loading above a 1 with a little over 25 jumps. Blues!! RobLife is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #18 December 1, 2008 QuoteI first tought I would buy a 170 main but The guy keeps telling me not to buy something over 150... I think he's reallly qualified since he has more than 16,000 jump... Brian Germain only has 13,000 jumps, but he designs parachutes, writes books on flying parachutes and sports psychology, and travels around the world teaching canopy flight. He recommends a pound per square foot (less for small canopies, more aggressive planforms, and higher density altitudes). While you'll probably be fine landing an even smaller canopy straight into the wind in a nice grassy landing area, when things start going wrong (landing out due to a long spot, on an uneven surface because your choice are landing on a road with cars or in a farmer's plowed field, with a low turn because you didn't see barbed wire or power lines at altitude because it was on the sunset load and the sun is already behind the hills) it'll be more likely to be too much. Things get more significant as you go to smaller canopies. You might not notice much difference between a 190 and 170; but by the time you're jumping 135s you may have problems keeping a 120 headed in a straight line (I did). Delaying when that happens by putting another 100-200 jumps on a larger size will give you more chances to learn enough to limit the damage once things get ugly. If you suffer from at least average levels of testosterone poisoning you'll soon want something smaller than a 170. That's fine. Lots of people use that as an excuse to buy a smaller canopy than they're ready for now. Most do OK but a number find out the hard way that they can't handle the added speed and sensitivity when they find themselves in a bad situation. If you do a reasonable job learning to fly parachutes in 50-75 jumps you'll be ready for a 150. If you buy used you'll spend $75 on depreciation and it won't be a big deal like skipping a size might be. Quote That's why I am confused... Opinions vary, but I can count the people I know who broke themselves staying within Brian's Wingloading Never Exceed chart on one hand. I've lost track of how many broken bones I've seen outside the chart and wing loading was always a contributing factor. One was a small girl who was technically within the limits of the chart but hadn't learned how to land parachutes well before downsizing anyways because people told her it was easier to get good landings under smaller parachutes. She broke a wrist or two learning that it was a good idea to have a handle on one size of parachute before trying the next one. I think that happened with a 170, but that was years ago. That brings up the other side of this - you want to be able to do everything on Bill's checklist flying a larger parachute (at a pound per square foot, a modern 170 will fly like the smaller parachutes favored by experienced jumpers just slower). That'll take a bunch of jumps . QuoteAnd a ratio of 1:1 is not good for me??? 1:1 includes both your weight (150 pounds) and the gear (my smallest rig with a 105 and 143 weighs 19 pounds; the accuracy rig with a 245 and 253 is 29 pounds) which are going to be more than 170 pounds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #19 December 2, 2008 QuoteMy Instructor at my dropzone is telling me that I need a Sabre II 150... He's telling me that in my case, if I buy a Spectre 150 I'll be bored in less than another 25 jump... Everyone is different. I've spent the majority of my jumps on a sabre2 170. The smallest I've flown was a nitro(n) 135. I prefer my 170. For you that may be the 150 you're asking about (when you factor our weight differences). I've flown a sabre2 190 as well and although I prefer my 170 I could spend another 200+ jumps on that canopy and still not get every bit of performance out of it. I once saw a rally driver in a 60hp Subaru Justy school some 1/3 million dollar "racers" in their fully prepped WRX and EVOs. I think parachuting can be the same - the limiting factor is seldom the equipment. At worse if you're having trouble choosing find one you can rent/borrow and with your instructor's briefing try it out. See how you like it. I wouldn't buy a car without test driving it first... -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #20 December 2, 2008 QuoteQuoteMy Instructor at my dropzone is telling me that I need a Sabre II 150... He's telling me that in my case, if I buy a Spectre 150 I'll be bored in less than another 25 jump... Everyone is different. Until you deal successfully with a number of problems (you have to make a 90 degree turn at 50' because in the low light of the sunset load you didn't notice power lines until too late; or the winds changed a little and you're no longer going to land short of a barbed wire fence) you don't know how well you'll deal with those situations with a canopy having a given speed and responsiveness. With low jump numbers at a canopy size, either you haven't gotten into enough of those situations and therefore should assume that you won't deal with them well under a smaller canopy that's more likely to put a stop or pause to your jumping or you have which means you have bad judgement and shouldn't be jumping a smaller canopy where that's more likely to get you in trouble. Quote I've spent the majority of my jumps on a sabre2 170. The smallest I've flown was a nitro(n) 135. I prefer my 170. For you that may be the 150 you're asking about (when you factor our weight differences). It's not about preferences. When everything is going well lots of jumpers prefer smaller parachutes because they're more fun to fly and it doesn't take much to land straight into the wind in a large field without any extra speed. It's about how things go wrong and having a statiically better chance of dealing with them without injury when that happens. Quote At worse if you're having trouble choosing find one you can rent/borrow and with your instructor's briefing try it out. See how you like it. I wouldn't buy a car without test driving it first... A guy suffering from average testoserone poisoning levels and following Brian Germain's Wingloading Never Exceed chart may put 75 jumps on his first canopy. Getting off rental gear with a safe wingloading may be a lot more important than jumping the "perfect" canopy for the next six months. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #21 December 2, 2008 QuoteIt may be worthwhile to try the storm. I'm basing that off what people say, not what I know. Hoping I can demo one in a couple of weeks. -Michael Provided that the original poster both suffers from an average level of testosterone poisoning and downsizes no faster than Brian Germain's Wingloading never exceed formula he's going to keep the canopy for 75 jumps. If he starts with a popular used canopy without a lot of jumps on the lineset and does a reasonable job shpping he's going to sell it for $1 a jump less than he paid. With a good job shopping he'll turn a profit. If he starts with a new canopy, he's going to have to discount it more heavily to sell soon because at the bottom he has price pressure from all the $600-$800 Spectres and $1000-$1200 Sabre 2s+Pilots (they're newer) that fly as well as a new canopy of the same model and at the top people can get a brand new canopy in their colors for about the same money ($100 is barely 5% of a new canopy's price). I've known people who got new canopies and lost $500 selling them within a year because they wanted to take advantage of a good deal on a new-to-them used parachute. Jumping a tapered 9 cell (Sabre 2, Pilot, Safire, Lotus) and 7 cell (Spectre, Omega) wouldn't be a bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #22 December 2, 2008 Quote It's not about preferences. When everything is going well lots of jumpers prefer smaller parachutes because they're more fun to fly and it doesn't take much to land straight into the wind in a large field without any extra speed. The point was only that for me is only that preference equates to boredness - one thing that seems to drive downsizing. My preference is my 170 which means I didn't get bored in 25 jumps. I'd have to check my logbook but I may have done 25 on a sabre210 as well and wasn't bored with that either. Of course as I said originally everyone is different. I plucked out a grey hair this morning so maybe a desire to downsize would have been different if I got into this sport 15 years earlier. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsvadeboncoeur 0 #23 December 18, 2008 Thanks to all of you! After spending an hour on the phone with Daniel (Thanks Dan!) I decided to order a Brand New Sabre2 150! I'll be doing couples of jump on a biger canopy before I jump mine. But like I said before I've put 5 jumps on a Spectre 150 last summer and Daniel says that I really want a Sabre2... Not saying that I'm good at all, I know that I am new to this sport and respect every advice I got. But couples of experienced jumper that saw me flying all gave me the same word: Sabre2 150 so I decided to go with that! Again Thanks alot!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Renegate 0 #24 December 18, 2008 I weight 150 (170 out the door). I jumped a Navigator 200 at 25 jumps, Sabre 2 190 at 28. At 40 I bought my Pilot 168. At 70-80 I practiced CReW with Storm 150, I even landed Lightning 143 perfectly on my feet (with weight). Am I ready for a 150? My CReW instructor (and he is experienced, world record, teams etc.) tells me I'm fine, my friends tell me I am rushing. Past weekend after 5 weeks not jumping I caught a cross wind at about 3-4 feet, didn't compensate and ended doing a spectacular cartweel. I am fine except for bruised elbow + ego and having to clean my container. I am not an experienced guy but if I am rushing, you are flying. Oh and also except for this one landing past weekend, I never had a problem, my landings were nearly perfect starting jump 6. Go figure.- It's okay to be happy to see me. Just because you're English doesn't mean you need to hide your emotions. - I'm Irish. We let people know how we feel. Now fuck off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #25 December 18, 2008 Oh and also except for this one landing past weekend, I never had a problem, my landings were nearly perfect starting jump 6. Go figure. Huh! Go Figure! Things don't always go as planned? Stand up landings are over rated anyway, unless you're doing a demo."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
