Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks?

[2shay 0]

this has been discussed before. I don't pack for anyone but myself, so it doesn't really matter to me. I have seen answers this time and last time from one end to the other. They all are somewhat right, and of course some wrong ones in there too. I believe in free markets so the rigger can charge what ever they want. Obviously they must be careful, and not piss people off by outrageous raises in price. People will find someone who will do it cheaper if they do. Once again I do not pack for anyone so I really don't care what others do, but if it were me I would raise maybe five dollars and maybe a year or two later raise five again. People are less likely to resent you for the raises if it is done gradually. I have no problem paying a decent price for anything becasue business is business. When it is done in a decieving way or outrageous price hikes people will resent you and will find alternate ways to get the product cheaper.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[rehmwa 2]

This is all a bit odd.

If a rigger does 90 packs/year for 30 customers, now those 30 customers will only need 60 packs next year.

The rigger doesn't raise his prices, he goes and gets 15 more customers and still does the same amount of work - 90 packs.

the baseline of the price adjusts naturally otherwise based on inflation and market forces (Sunshine's non sequitors acknowledged here). If I only work half the hours I currently do at my company, I don't expect them to double my pay.....I do expect my pay to increase yearly based on the other stuff.

Frankly, if the total costs of rigging for the customer goes down, maybe a few of the 'amatuer' riggers that just do repacks for themselves and little else might hang up the biz and just take it to someone that does a better job full time. There's a source for some of those new 15 customers.

Also more skydivers joining the industry every year.

Every rigger I know has more customers than he can handle. So they'll not be impacted at all, they'll make it up with more customers.

and that's just repacks. Let alone the real rigging work that goes on. I don't use my rigger for repacks, any clown can do that, I use my rigger for his inspection and advice and the care he takes in maintaining my gear. he'll still find stuff I miss and we'll fix those - a twice a year cycle for that is fine too.


as far as 'deserving' more pay? that's also odd. Everyone I know thinks they deserve more pay. it's a pointless argument. Market forces determine what you get - that's reality. If it's less than 'deserved' (whatever that means), then it's a bad business to be in.

Seems that rigging is a decent specialized trade. That usually implies materials, plus an hourly rate. I don't see how this affects the hourly rate one bit.

A good rigger will attract more customers. Bad riggers will lose customers. How is this in any way bad for the sport?

Arbitrarily upping the price will just keep the worst riggers in business - think of it as a bank/GM/rigger "Bailout"

Seriously, which of you guys is scared that he can't find more customers or will lose your business to someone else that can now take yours?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[floormonkey 0]

HA! as if a bunch of riggers could actually agree enough to actually organize. One guy raised his prices because he was to busy and wanted to scare away some business. Almost everyone else in the area followed suit. Poor guy is busier then ever now.

I keep mine about the same as everyone else so I don't undercut those who do it for a living. The nice thing about it not being my main source of income now is I only pack for who I want and can send the whiners and cheapskates to someone else.

[azureriders 0]

I have not read all the posts in this thread. I have read some of them and I have had this discusion with several people, including some riggers. There have been several points made, less work, less income, supply and demand, etc, etc. I have only one question: If the FAA would have lowered our packing schedule to 80 days, would the riggers have dropped their prices by 33% ????????

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

I have not read all the posts in this thread. I have read some of them and I have had this discusion with several people, including some riggers. There have been several points made, less work, less income, supply and demand, etc, etc. I have only one question: If the FAA would have lowered our packing schedule to 80 days, would the riggers have dropped their prices by 33% ????????

Well we will never know the answer to that for sure, will we? Anyone can say yes to something that they know they will never have to do!!!!

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[ozzy13 0]

It really just pisses me off that there are riggers that think they should charge more now because of this change.

I got a letter today from a customer that stated if I want to continue doing business with them I have to allow them to take 10% off every months bill until April due to the economy. They are 80% of my business and they already cut 50% of the volume.

Now you guys are going to do less work and want more money. (BULLSHIT) if you ask me.
I think Ill will get my rigger ticket so I wont be robbed by thieves.

My last two cents

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[hackish 8]

Quote

$32.50 an hour (assuming 2 hours for an I/R) is not a good wage? If you can do it for 40 hours a week, that is about $65,000 a year. Sound like a decent wage to me.

Maybe I'm slow then. Takes me about 2h just to inspect everything. $32.50CAD ($24.59USD) per hour is great if the loft is free, does not require any insurance, heat, or lights.

It would be far easier to replace someone's front brakes (1.2h of labour on the book) 30min actual time. Again, I'm not in it for the money but it surprises me when people feel the current rate which hasn't changed a lot in the last 20 years is too much.

-Michael

[billvon 2,397]

>$32.50 an hour (assuming 2 hours for an I/R) is not a good wage?
>If you can do it for 40 hours a week . . .

There's the rub. It's possible to do a repack in 2 hours. But add in shipping cypreses back to Airtec, emailing UPT with pictures of minor harness damage for their opinion (and waiting for their reply) replacing corroded reserve links, dropping off a rig with the guy that absolutely positively needs it this weekend, resetting a flap grommet, getting new cypres batteries and waiting for the PD143-in-a-PD126-container packjob to settle so you can close it - you can't really do 20 in a week.

Well, you probably could if you had someone to handle all the other stuff. But suddenly you're making half of what you used to.

[Squeak 17]

Quote

>$32.50 an hour (assuming 2 hours for an I/R) is not a good wage?
>If you can do it for 40 hours a week . . .

There's the rub. It's possible to do a repack in 2 hours. But add in shipping cypreses back to Airtec, emailing UPT with pictures of minor harness damage for their opinion (and waiting for their reply) replacing corroded reserve links, dropping off a rig with the guy that absolutely positively needs it this weekend, resetting a flap grommet, getting new cypres batteries and waiting for the PD143-in-a-PD126-container packjob to settle so you can close it - you can't really do 20 in a week.

Well, you probably could if you had someone to handle all the other stuff. But suddenly you're making half of what you used to.

You're being silly Bill the $32.50 ($65) is ONLY for an AIR, anything else is charged out accordingly ON TOP of the $32.50.
if you are going to argue the point at least do it honestly

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[2shay 0]

some things you say rarely are right on the money, but most is complete horse shit.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[jumper03 0]

Quote

Now you guys are going to do less work and want more money. (BULLSHIT) if you ask me.
I think Ill will get my rigger ticket so I wont be robbed by thieves.

YES!! Enlightenment. I suggest to everyone else that is pissing and moaning about what they pay for a repack - go get your ticket. Otherwise, sit down and hush until we get to you.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

Quote

Now you guys are going to do less work and want more money. (BULLSHIT) if you ask me.
I think Ill will get my rigger ticket so I wont be robbed by thieves.

YES!! Enlightenment. I suggest to everyone else that is pissing and moaning about what they Charge for a repack - go get a new job. Otherwise, sit down and hush or we find a new rigger that is more reasonable .

There I fixed it for you

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[davelepka 4]

Quote

It's possible to do a repack in 2 hours. But add in shipping cypreses back to Airtec, emailing UPT with pictures of minor harness damage for their opinion (and waiting for their reply) replacing corroded reserve links, dropping off a rig with the guy that absolutely positively needs it this weekend, resetting a flap grommet, getting new cypres batteries and waiting for the PD143-in-a-PD126-container packjob to settle so you can close it - you can't really do 20 in a week.

Well, you probably could if you had someone to handle all the other stuff. But suddenly you're making half of what you used to.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're being silly Bill the $32.50 ($65) is ONLY for an AIR, anything else is charged out accordingly ON TOP of the $32.50.
if you are going to argue the point at least do it honestly

OK, let's really be honest, how many rigger add-on charges for all those extra tasks? I'm sure they pass on the out ot pocket costs, like shipping, but mnay will just eat the extra time it takes to complete some pack jobs.

Again, I think the majority of jumpers whoa re opposed to an increase are too focused on the labor side of things (even though we all know that most riggers will go the extra mile labor-wise for their customers). What they are forgetting is the legality of sealing a rig, and putting into compliance for a given time period.

Lets say, for example, that there was no requirement for a reserve repack based on time. If the only time you got a repack was when you needed maintainence or after a cutaway, how much do you think a repack would cost. Furthermore, how many riggers would there be without the recurring need for repacks? The pricing is based, in part, on the 120 day cycle. Change the cycle, change the price.

Another thing to consider is all the income the riggers will loose, even if they raise their prices accordingly. Lets keep in mind that many seasonal jumper will now be able to get by on a single pack job per year.

If a rigger is charging $50 ($150 per year on a 120 day cycle), the seasonal jumper is spending $100 for two repacks per year. If the rigger raises the price to $75 (also $150 per year when you have a 180 day cycle), the seasonal jumper now only needs one repack, and will be saving $25, or, more in line with this discussion, the rigger is losing $25, even if they raise their prices to match the new repack cycle.

If that rigger doesn't raise their prices, then they are losing $50 per year on that seasonal customer.

Here's a thought I had, in terms of the legality portion of your repack - I register my car every year so I'm legal to drive on the pubilc roads. The last notice I got offered me the option to register for two years instead of just one. The price was simply doubled, but it was one less thing for me to worry about next year, one less check to write, and one less letter to mail, so I went for it.

This issue is much the same - the out of pocket cost to the jumper is the same, it's just the amount of service you recieve every time you visit your rigger is higher (let's remember that making your rig legal is part of what you're paying for). Of course, there's the added benefit (to the jumper) of less wear and tear on your rig, and fewer vists to the rigger.

Lastly (and I've made this point before), let's all rememeber every time a rigger has saved your ass. Sometimes literallty, after a cutaway, and sometimes just by getting you legal in a pinch. Ever show up to a boogie with a reserve out of date, only to have a rigger you never met git-r-done so you can have a good time? Maybe show up at a DZ while on winter break for some much needed air time to find yourself stuck at manifest with a gear problem? You came so far, and it's the rigger who's going to bail you out and get you past manifest and into the plane.

We're not talking about making these people rich on our dime. It's just a matter of preserving their income, while not changing our out of pocket costs one cent. What's wrong with that?

[Squeak 17]

Quote

*** OK, let's really be honest, how many rigger add-on charges for all those extra tasks? I'm sure they pass on the out ot pocket costs, like shipping, but mnay will just eat the extra time it takes to complete some pack jobs.

my rigger charges for any add ons and i would expect him to, the bulk of his income is derived from rigging so i expect him to charge for any and all work carried out.


Like i have said a couple of times, I pay whatg my rigger charges (largely) without question.

But using the repack cycle as the JUST CAUSE for an increase is bollocks.

As was asked before by another poster, if the repack time had gone the other way would all the riggers want to drop the costs of repacks? I think not.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[billvon 2,397]

>You're being silly Bill the $32.50 ($65) is ONLY for an AIR, anything else
>is charged out accordingly ON TOP of the $32.50.

So if you had a question about minor wear on a harness, and you emailed Sandy Reid to ask him about it - you would add an email fee?

If you had to let a packjob settle for an hour - you'd bill them another $20 an hour?

If you had to drive somewhere to get cypres batteries - you'd add a per-mile fee?

That's fine - but most riggers don't do that.

[Squeak 17]

Quote

>You're being silly Bill the $32.50 ($65) is ONLY for an AIR, anything else
>is charged out accordingly ON TOP of the $32.50.

So if you had a question about minor wear on a harness, and you emailed Sandy Reid to ask him about it - you would add an email fee?

If you had to let a packjob settle for an hour - you'd bill them another $20 an hour?

If you had to drive somewhere to get cypres batteries - you'd add a per-mile fee?

That's fine - but most riggers don't do that.

You have a set price for a service, so if you charge "X" for a pack thats what i pay for, if that pack takes you 1 2 or 3 hours, that's irrelevant, you charge a set price for a given service.
I dont know ANY rigger that charges per time unit for an A.I.R.
and that is what this thread is about an A.I R.

If my cypress needs new batteries my rigger supplies them, changes them and charges me accordingly for the service.

and i would not email Sandy about anything, he's not my rigger.
I speak to my rigger face to face. and i ask him to do minor repair when i notice them and subsequently get charged accordingly.


NOW BACK ON TOPIC

The repack cycle change is not a valid reason for a price hike for an A.I.R.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[jumper03 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Now you guys are going to do less work and want more money. (BULLSHIT) if you ask me.
I think Ill will get my rigger ticket so I wont be robbed by thieves.

YES!! Enlightenment. I suggest to everyone else that is pissing and moaning about what they Charge for a repack - go get a new job. Otherwise, sit down and hush or we find a new rigger that is more reasonable .

There I fixed it for you

Got no problem with that either.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[hackish 8]

Quote

I think Ill will get my rigger ticket so I wont be robbed by thieves.

Spend $500 on the course.
I spent another $500 on top of that for food and travel.
Spend about $250 on equipment.
Easily 100+ hours reading up, practising and learning the basics of the craft on top of the 60h of course work.

So that's 19 repacks just in funds.

What is that? 10 years of saving your own repacks before it cost justifies? If you spent that 160h at work instead that's a month's wages.

I don't think we're in it for the money.

I'm not offended by being called a thief - that happens every day when I work on cars. Strangely I'm not rich from that either.

-Michael

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

Quote

I think Ill will get my rigger ticket so I wont be robbed by thieves.

I'm not offended by being called a thief l

Well I guess if you are going to raise prices because of this change its wrong!!

We can go on and on about how the cost of business has gone up and prices have not changed in 20 years but that was not the question that we have at hand.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[jumpwally 0]

"sorry, i don't do racers " why do we still see this ?
i just don't understand,,,on weather days i've watched many different reserves being re-packed and never heard comments like that,,,, as a rigger i would assume would enjoy packing all types,,rigging is a passion for you , no ? Do they mal more often ? Its the oddest f..ing thing i've ever come across

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[billvon 2,397]

>"sorry, i don't do racers " why do we still see this ?

Because they are quite different from most other rigs out there. It's not hard to learn how to pack a Racer. But for riggers who don't want to take the time - it's better both for them and their customers to stick with the rigs they are familiar with.

[mpuettman 0]

***

If it cost more for riggers to their job I would expect them to raise their price. Just like every DZ I know raising their prices this year.

Its not costing them more to pack less. Its that they are working less so they will be making less. There is a difference

[erdnarob 1]

I agree with you that generally a rigger has to do a lot of other odd jobs as you have illustrated. Here they are : changing a loop, changing a grommet, put a stitch here and there, lubricating cables, sealing a reserve, registering the packing, put a seal on the reserve, testing the pull force, testing the reserve fabric with a scale and modified vise grip type pliers, make appropriate entry on the technician log book and packing card, putting a patch, changing the reserve shock cord, making a reserve shock cord...) and has possibly to buy some tools either like: positive leverage device (50$), a die for grommets (a #8 stainless steel die (600.00$), a press for rip cord ball and pin (800$), a testing machine for rip cord (300$), a spool of closing loop cord with loop washers (20$) and so on and so on... There is a difference between a drop zone rigger and a rigger working for a parachute equipment company. While one is working on a very variable demand of service the other one is doing a job on a regular basis.
But 120 or 180 days repack cycle, as I have said in a post on this forum months ago, riggers should be paid according their responsabilities ie. packing a reserve which is the last chance to stay alive when everything goes bad with the main parachute. Doctors have less responsabilities than riggers and their insurance company or association have very good lawyers and a lot of money in case you want to sue them. Riggers will not be sued by a guy/girl who dies because of a reserve problem but will likely get sued by his/her family. Riggers should be paid the equivalent of the average cost of 3-4 jumps at 13500' per reserve packing and this for their responsabilities.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[billvon 2,397]

>Doctors have less responsabilities than riggers . . .

. . . and both have less responsibilities than pilots, who are often the lowest-paid employees at a DZ. People you are responsible for does not equate to pay.

>Riggers should be paid the equivalent of the average cost of 3-4 jumps at
>13500' per reserve packing and this for their responsabilities.

Why? Why not pay them what people are willing to pay them? That seems to work out best in the long run.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Andre,

Quote

a press for rip cord ball and pin (800$), a testing machine for rip cord (300$),

A ripcord is a component requiring a TSO-authorization to legally make. Unless some rigger holds a TSO then they should not be making ripcords ( USA is what I am referring to ).

Just my thoughts on this in the event some riggers want to go out and buy the 'goodies' to start banging out ripcords.

As to the pricing of repacks; well Bill V disagrees with you but I would like to make that much.

It is all about what the market will bear; at least that is what my experience has been.

JerryBaumchen