You're an S&TA at your dropzone; are you obligated to comment on safety at another dropzone?

[DSE 3]

An S&TA notices a newbie jumper getting on an aircraft with a very old rig. Says to the kid "Whatcha doin' on this jump?" Kid says "I'm going head-down."
The S&TA says "Not with that rig. It's not free-fly friendly."
The kid argues, but does comply.
That weekend, both the S&TA and the kid find themselves at a boogie event on another DZ.
S&TA overhears kid and a few others talking about doing a VRW jump. Kid is wearing same rig previously mentioned, and has around 30 jumps.
Is the S&TA *obligated* to say something, or merely *should* say something because it's a general safety concern? Or is it acceptable for him to turn a blind eye to it because he's got other things going on, or perhaps it's none of his business at another DZ?

[edited to add: This isn't a real event. The discipline and locations have been changed to protect the innocent in an actual incident.

[matthewcline 0]

Well I think as an S&TA who has had interaction with the individual before he should speak up again. I would rather have a pissed but safe jumper than a happy dead jumper at the DZ. They would eventually meet a "Cool guy" to tell them I was right.

I am an "At Large" and eve nspeak up out of my region, but it is only after the DZ knows I am there.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Andy9o8 0]

I'd say at the very least morally ought to say something, not because he's an S&TA somehwere, but because he recognizes the safety hazard, so it's a standard that applies to all of us. The risk is to more than just that one jumper - if his rig premaurely deploys, you could have a freefall-into-canopy collision that could easily become a multiple fatality.

[peregrinerose 0]

I'm not sure this is solely an S&TA issue. I'm not one, but would have said something directly and/or to the DZ's S&TA. I believe we all need to watch out for each other, not just the sacred few with titles keeping an eye on things.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[billvon 2,384]

It _has_ happened to me. I don't know if one is morally obligated, but I felt like I had to say something. The manager at the other DZ said "OK, I'll keep an eye on him". The person in question (jumping a way-too-small main, not a ratty rig) was quite proud of himself. "You can't ground me here because you're not S+TA here! Sucks to be you."

He broke his hand trying to land later that day after taking out Airspeed at the mockup. He broke his pelvis and back much later, and will never walk normally again.

[Broke 0]

I am not an S&TA, but I do jump an old rig that is not free fly friedly.

I have no issue talking about bridal protection and what the velcro does on my reserve pin cover when not in the belly to earth position.

If someone has a premature that would just be bad for all inviolved. I would speak up, or at least urge the jumper to think about what he is doing.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[kkeenan 13]

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I would rather have a pissed but safe jumper than a happy dead jumper at the DZ.

Contrary to this characterization, I believe that there are no happy dead jumpers. Once they realize they're dead, I'll bet they're really pissed.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[matthewcline 0]

Yeah, you got me there, but you also got the point.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[LouDiamond 1]

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Is the S&TA *obligated* to say something, or merely *should* say something because it's a general safety concern? Or is it acceptable for him to turn a blind eye to it because he's got other things going on, or perhaps it's none of his business at another DZ?

In the end, its always best to choose the hard right over the easy wrong. Too many people these days simply allow things to happen around them because they subscribe to the mentality of "its not my job". If you saw someone's 3 ring improperly assembled or undone on an airplane would you feel obligated to say something? Would you want someone to say something to you if it was your 3 ring in question?

I have a few South African friends who have told me stories of how someone could do something jacked up at a different DZ one weekend and when they set foot on their DZ again, the first thing they heard from the DZO was that they heard about last weekend and not to jack up/do it again. I know its a much smaller community there but the fact that there is communication between S&TAs/DZOs about the safety of the jumpers and they say things to the jumpers is the right answer IMO. Sometimes people in this sport need to be saved from themselves because they don't know what they don't know.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[JohnMitchell 14]

I"m not an S&TA (used to be an ASO, though) but I'll speak up about anything I see that I feel is unsafe anyway. The level of danger, the person's response, and several other factors determine how far I take it. You can usually find a local S&TA to discuss the situation with you. Then they can take it from there.

[Skwrl 56]

Spot,

I guess the question I have in response to your question is, "say something to whom?".

If you mean, "say something to the jumper", then my reaction is everyone, not just S&TAs, should say something when they see someone behaving in an unsafe manner.

Here's why:

Call the unsafe jumper Al, and the observer Bob.

It's possible that no one has ever told the Al that information before. Al might not know. Every moment in our sport can be a moment to learn. (I realize that is not your hypothetical.)

Alternatively, if Bob told Al before, it can't hurt for Bob to say it again. Al might simply think Bob is being overly protective, and thus Al might be discounting what Bob has to say. Sometimes, however, people have to hear warnings several times before they click.

Also, if other people hear Bob tactfully saying something to the effect of, "You freefly in that rig? Don't you worry about it not being freefly friendly?", others at the DZ might agree with Bob. If Al just thought Bob was a safety nut before, Al might rethink his position if others agree with Bob.

Worse case? Bob sounds like a little bit of a nag. Big deal. Best case? Bob saved Al's (and potentially others') lives. (I know if I was in the free fly group that followed Al's free fly group, I wouldn't suddenly want to find myself on top of a surprise open canopy.)

Personally, I consider that I have a moral obligation to say something when I see unsafe activity - even to those who know far more than I do. Skwrl's Third Law: Speak truth to power - no reason why that's any different here than it is elsewhere in life.

Sometimes, I rationalize my feeling that we should all look out for each other as "skydivers are like a large dysfunctional family of mine." Some of my best friends skydive. Who would I get drunk with if they were gone?

Other times, it's enlightened self-interest - every injury or death casts a bad light on our sport, and people doing something stupid might hurt someone I love (i.e., me).

So, I vote for "Say something, always, wherever."

If you mean "talk to the DZO or the local S&TA", my thinking becomes a lot more nuanced...

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[pilotdave 0]

S&TAs have no real authority at any dropzone (unless the DZO gives them authority). I think experienced jumpers should watch out for newer jumpers doing stupid things that might get them hurt. This S&TA already warned the guy once. Obviously it didn't sink in. I'd say he should warn him again in front of his buddies that are going to do VRW with him. But that's up to him.

Earlier this year I got on a plane and noticed a guy with a rented rig and no jumpsuit sitting up near the pilot. It dawned on me at some point that this guy was planning to freefly in an old Vector2. I told him that the rig is not freefly friendly and he needs to stay on his belly... flips are ok, but don't spend any time in a sit or on his back, etc. He promised he wouldn't. Few hours later he had a premature deployment in a sit. Some people aren't going to listen till it happens.

BTW, that rig has been retired.

Dave

[flyinhi79 0]

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It _has_ happened to me. I don't know if one is morally obligated, but I felt like I had to say something. The manager at the other DZ said "OK, I'll keep an eye on him". The person in question (jumping a way-too-small main, not a ratty rig) was quite proud of himself. "You can't ground me here because you're not S+TA here! Sucks to be you."

He broke his hand trying to land later that day after taking out Airspeed at the mockup. He broke his pelvis and back much later, and will never walk normally again.

OMG! This is an absolutely insane! Not only do I agree the S&TA should say something "no matter what DZ he is from, as they have a trained eye for things" I think DZ's should have a policy stating S&TA's from ALL DZ's have the authority to pull people off loads if they feel the person's life or the life of another is put in an unneccisaryly higher risk. This should be followed with a meeting with the DZ's actual S&TA. The DZ's S&TA should make the "final" call to allow the jumper in question to proceed on a different load!

This would not cost the DZO's very much "just signage and a little extra load on staff" but I believe this could have a huge effect on the number of incidents. The S&TA can not see everything. Having known backups "volanteer basis" would yield more eyes looking out for potential problems.

On a side note: I would rather hate someone for grounding me, and be able to come home to my wife and kids than to continue doing something wrong and one day "or later that day" pound in! Or take someone else with me/out.

It is easy to say "we need to watch out for each other." It is entirely different to take action and do something about it. With action comes results. If the results do not yield the preferred outcome, we simply take another action and "learn" from the previous action.

[avgjoe 0]

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OMG! This is an absolutely insane! Not only do I agree the S&TA should say something "no matter what DZ he is from, as they have a trained eye for things" I think DZ's should have a policy stating S&TA's from ALL DZ's have the authority to pull people off loads if they feel the person's life or the life of another is put in an unneccisaryly higher risk. This should be followed with a meeting with the DZ's actual S&TA. The DZ's S&TA should make the "final" call to allow the jumper in question to proceed on a different load!

So S& TA's don't get a day off, regardless of where they are jumping? They took the badge and are always obligated to uphold the law? No more personal fun jumps... they must selflessly dedicate themselves to save people too stupid to save themselves.

For nothing... for you see, S&TA's DON'T GET PAID, and even better get second guessed by dzo's who don't agree with them.

OMG who would want that job?

Avgjoe
Hook it for safety

[NWFlyer 2]

Welcome to the real world. You do know what the A stands for in S&TA, right?

Hint: it's not Authority.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Couloirman 0]

I don't think it matters who you are. As skydivers we all have a unique bond to one another, and even if you're a total newbie but see something obviously dangerous you have a moral obligation to tell that person why what they are doing is dangerous and to try to get them to correct it.

[LadiDadi 0]

I'm neither a cop nor a fireman.

If I see someone about to douse something in gasoline and set it alight am I not obligated to do something?

I don't think it has anything to do with the S&TA title or training. It has to do with a trained eye and experience and concern for everyone's safety. If one guy fucks up it could, potentially, fuck up some other people.

I'm a student and all of my focus is on getting my dumb ass safely to the ground. I have no choice but to rely on the expierence and concern of others at the DZ to make sure that other dumb asses are quarrantined from each other. In whatever manner they are quarrantined - load spacing, different landing areas, stern talkings to, full on sphincter remodeling, grounding, black eyes, whatever.

If you can't laugh at yourself, I'll be happy to do it for you.
****************************
Be like the cupcake and suck it up.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I am one of five S&TA's at Skydive City in Z-hills, FL and I don't have ANY problem calling a person out if he or she is doing something dangersous. Likewise, I don't have any problem bringing up similar problems at boogies to their S&TA.

Chuck

[diablopilot 2]

Yes, I believe so, but then I also believe that the S&TA position should be separated from specific DZ's and should be an "at large" appointment.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Butters 0]

If this is a real safety issue, yes (anytime, anywhere). If this is a perceived safety issue, maybe (sometimes, someplaces).

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[flyinhi79 0]

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OMG! This is an absolutely insane! Not only do I agree the S&TA should say something "no matter what DZ he is from, as they have a trained eye for things" I think DZ's should have a policy stating S&TA's from ALL DZ's have the authority to pull people off loads if they feel the person's life or the life of another is put in an unneccisaryly higher risk. This should be followed with a meeting with the DZ's actual S&TA. The DZ's S&TA should make the "final" call to allow the jumper in question to proceed on a different load!

So S& TA's don't get a day off, regardless of where they are jumping? They took the badge and are always obligated to uphold the law? No more personal fun jumps... they must selflessly dedicate themselves to save people too stupid to save themselves.

For nothing... for you see, S&TA's DON'T GET PAID, and even better get second guessed by dzo's who don't agree with them.

OMG who would want that job?

Avgjoe
Hook it for safety

Hmmm, I guess it would be good practice to re'read my post before hitting the post button. I can see a few mistakes I made.

Anyways,
I am not saying that S&TA's should NEVER get a day off. I am saying they should have the authority to take action if/when they see fit "no matter what DZ they are from." The way the OP phrased his post was more "should I be able to do something as a S&TA from another dropzone?" The OP saw something that was very dangerous and he took action. How horrible do you think he would have felt if this guy would have gone in or killed someone else and he could have said something that might have prevented the whole thing? I don't think he would say to himself "oh well, this was my fun jump day/day off."

[popsjumper 2]

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So S& TA's don't get a day off, regardless of where they are jumping? They took the badge and are always obligated to uphold the law? No more personal fun jumps... they must selflessly dedicate themselves to save people too stupid to save themselves.

For nothing... for you see, S&TA's DON'T GET PAID, and even better get second guessed by dzo's who don't agree with them.

OMG who would want that job?

Avgjoe
Hook it for safety

I hope this was tongue-in-cheek.
Just in case it wasn't...

Your post reads as though you have no clue as to why anyone would become an S&TA. How about this for starters:
- Concern for others.
- Respect for the sport.

Time or spatial relevance has no bearing on an S&TA's self-shouldered responsibility to do the best they can to keep jumpers and the entire sport as safe as they can.

You confuse the tltle with having a job in the sense of having to punch a clock. There is no clock to punch. There is no separation of "working jumps" vs "fun jumps". One does not preclude the other. A good S&TA will never take a "day off" and turn a blind eye to safety issues regardless of location.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Add me to the list of those who agree that the visiting S&TA should speak up.

My logical order, in this case, would be:
1. Speak to the jumper. No positive response?
2. Get the local S&TA involved before the jumper gets on the plane. No positive response?
3. Get the DZO involved before the jumper gets on the plane. No positive response?
4. Warn as many as you can that the jumper presents a real safety hazard and that jumping with him will be at their own risk.
5. Don't get on the same load with him.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[vegasjoe 0]

I've run into this time and again, since I jump around alot.
It was a hard lesson to learn when I was first appointed as an S&TA 15 or so yrs ago (Thanks John).
An S&TA is an advisor, a consultant; not the USPA police force. As an advisor, you are recognized as knowlegable and have previously demonstrated rational decision making. That recognition fades the farther away you get from you home DZ.
As an I/E, I carry the responsibility everywhere I go, (an S&TA at large, if you will), but I am jaded, I no longer waste the time talking with people who don't want to listen to me. I will bend over backwards to help anybody who wants help.
But back to the topic..everybody and anybody has the right and responsibility to communicate safety concerns.

note to self: start using spellcheck.

[flyinhi79 0]

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Add me to the list of those who agree that the visiting S&TA should speak up.

My logical order, in this case, would be:
1. Speak to the jumper. No positive response?
2. Get the local S&TA involved before the jumper gets on the plane. No positive response?
3. Get the DZO involved before the jumper gets on the plane. No positive response?
4. Warn as many as you can that the jumper presents a real safety hazard and that jumping with him will be at their own risk.
5. Don't get on the same load with him.

I do not want to hijack this thread so, please advise me if I should start a new thread regarding the following...

I would like to get everyones feedback regarding what power the S&TA should have.

Should the S&TA be able to remove jumpers from loads?

S&TA be able to require your gear be inspected before jumping?

S&TA be able to limit what type of jumps someone can do with the gear they have?

Should the S&TA be separated from the DZ "not directly employed by the DZ" so issues are not clouded by profit, the DZO, keeping full loads, and other things that currently might tie the hands of the S&TA position?

And what ever questions I should be asking relating to the above topic...

P.S. I understand that I am a low/no jump number idiot who should not be allowed to ask or contribute to any thread until I have 5000 jumps and a skydiving puppy. So for all who discredit my questions simply because I have the smallest amount of jumps please just picture for a moment that my number reads 5000+ jumps. If you have a hard time visualizing this, I can put whatever number in my profile you wish