0
jclalor

Near miss on 182

Recommended Posts

Quote

>Come on! You know, we know, pilots should know too.

That's a bit unreasonable. I would be willing to bet you don't know the CTAF or ATIS frequencies for the airports around your DZ.


For some reason I do know the ATIS/tower feq where I jump. I also do check for "white sharks" on places where they are usually are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Drop zones can ensure that their parachuting operation is depicted on sectional charts and that there is a NOTAM filed for skydiving activities during operation.

Theoretically, pilots are supposed to use sectional maps to plan their route of flight and check for current NOTAMs. .



WACs are legal for VFR navigation and do not show drop zones. Certificated GPS databases are legal for navigation and don't show DZs. A briefing from a FSS specialist for a long x-country flight is most unlikely to mention DZs along the way.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

WACs are legal for VFR navigation and do not show drop zones. Certificated GPS databases are legal for navigation and don't show DZs. A briefing from a FSS specialist for a long x-country flight is most unlikely to mention DZs along the way.



FAR § 91.103 Preflight action.

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

Unfortunately, most pilots are not aware of the ways to get ALL the information

Also, even on a check ride, a private pilot applicant can be 3 miles off course and still pass. A pilot flying with the precision required for the practical test, trying to avoid your DZ, could still wind up right over it.

As has previously been pointed out, the parachute symbol on the chart may not be right over the DZ.

Bottom line is that in most cases, aircraft flying from one place to another have as much right to the airspace as skydivers do. Therefore, we as jumpers should not have any expectation that the airspace be "sterilized."

Depending on the available radar coverage (in many places, ATC radar cannot pick up planes less than 5,000 feet AG) and how busy the controllers are, the best way for jumpers to avoid a "Close Encounter of the Last Kind" is to look before you leap.
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ATC can also set there screens to only pick up aircraft using a transponder if they are busy and the primary targets are cluttering the screen. Their primary responsibility is to aircraft on flight plans headed into their airspace.
Some controllers are very good at giving aircraft that could be a factor. Other controllers give every aircraft within 10 miles. All of this has to be sorted out by the pilot. Add to that the fact that the average controller doesn't have a clue what 105 says about jump aircraft notifying ATC or their responsibility.
GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


So it looks like Class E airspace. Hollister airport is non-towered (magenta on map). So there's no control zone at the airport or drop site. There's a parachute symbol at Hollister, as well as one by the nearby town of Tres Pinos - perhaps that's the actual drop location? If so, it is marked on the map and pilots would be advised to exercise caution.



Tres Pinos is the LZ and has been for some time now. Before my time (I first jumped there in 2000) they still landed at the airport.

But it's definitely a quiet area, typically, with a lot of large hill/small mountain terrain. Lower down, I could see a plane popping over the ridge, but at 11k, both planes shouldn't have trouble seeing each other. What was the cloud cover like that day? Lots of patches?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Not a cloud in the sky, very little haze and around 1100.



That's the worst case scenerio for aircraft mid-air collisions - I would imagine its the same for skydiver/aircraft collisions.

The whole idea with VFR flying is See and Avoid. That means that everyone has a responsibility to see and avoid other aircraft. ATC is not in any way responsible for keeping VFR aircraft separated from one another, except in Bravo airspace (not very common to be jumping in, its the stuff around big airports like O'hare, JFK, etc). IOW, you are just as responsible, according to the FAA, to see and avoid aircraft as they are to you, and ATC is not required to tell you that they are there.

Class Echo airspace means absolutely nothing. The only difference between Class Echo and Class Golf (uncontrolled) airspace, is that IFR traffic is routed through it. Most of the airspace below 18,000 ft in the country is Class E, and you don't need a radio or transponder to fly through it below 10,000 ft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the best way for jumpers to avoid a "Close Encounter of the Last Kind" is to look before you leap.



THIS BEARS REPEATING.

And since the OP did just that, and good for him, he did not become a wing ornament on the airplane that crossed their flightpath.
Just cuz the green light is on does not necessarily mean we can assume that it is safe to jump. SPOT AND MAKE SURE.

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A VFR pilot has the obligation to check on VFR maps where he is going to fly and what area he has to avoid or fly over with caution like: a DZ like Pepperell Mass. (where it happened) was certainy identified on the VFR map as a jumping area, it could be a training Air Force area, a cannon firing range area or a blasting area.
The safest place to fly for a pilot going over a DZ is flying well below the opening altitude where open parachutes can be seen and better yet doing so and passing downwing over the DZ.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

A VFR pilot has the obligation to check on VFR maps where he is going to fly and what area he has to avoid or fly over with caution like: a DZ like Pepperell Mass. (where it happened) was certainy identified on the VFR map as a jumping area, it could be a training Air Force area, a cannon firing range area or a blasting area.
The safest place to fly for a pilot going over a DZ is flying well below the opening altitude where open parachutes can be seen and better yet doing so and passing downwing over the DZ.




Nice thought, and good luck with that approach. Let's look at the example of a GA fast-mover like a corporate bizjet. When do you think was the last time that the corporate pilots on that airplane whipped out a sectional chart during a VFR leg? They're moving so fast they'd spend half the flight just re-folding the chart. Their GPS/FMS databases and WAC both don't indicate DZ's, nor would a typical standard briefing (IFR or VFR) since it's a published NOTAM.

Bottom line is that in our airspace system it's see and avoid for VFR. Sport skydiving is supposed to be a purely VFR activity, so we need to accept the reality that others will pass through our playground on a regular basis. Do what you need to do to keep yourself safe, but don't rely on assumptions about someone else's judgment when it's your butt on the line.

Lance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

A VFR pilot has the obligation to check on VFR maps where he is going to fly and what area he has to avoid or fly over with caution like: a DZ like Pepperell Mass. (where it happened) was certainy identified on the VFR map as a jumping area, it could be a training Air Force area, a cannon firing range area or a blasting area.
.



DZs are NOT shown on WAC charts, which are perfectly legal for VFR navigation.

I've never been told of a DZ by a FSS briefer.

Oftentimes ATIS will report jumping activity at DZs near the primary airport.

Out of curiosity I just submitted a DUATS request for "standard route briefing" for x-country flight that would pass right over the top of Skydive Chicago. (DUATS are an FAA approved way of getting "all available information"). No mention in the resulting NOTAMS of the existence of a DZ.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Near misses are not common, but I bet you'll find more than a few videos on youtube or skydivingmovies of near misses in freefall. :P

There have been skydiver/plane collisions. The one I remember happened in Massachusetts back in the 90's, I don't remember the exact year, and without researching, I'm just guessing. But apparently a small private plane with its transponder or radio turned off got lost on a flight from Boston to some point west, overflew a DZ right when its plane was letting a load out. The lost plane happened to be flying below and just behind the DZ plane. The guy who jumped, hit the horizontal stabilizer of the lost plane, breaking his ankle, and sending the plane into an unrecoverable spin to the ground. That's my best recollection of the details.



http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X13693&key=1

That's the one you are refering to.

Here's another jump plane to plane collision:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X28948&key=2

and another:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X16418&key=2

And a jumper into another jump plane:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20010601X01046&key=1
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Regarding the first accident report: I can't help but notice that the NTSB blames the air traffic controller and pilots and makes no mention of the skydiver. Is this because the NTSB and FAA don't want to view skydivers as active participants for the purpose of accident reports due to logistical and legal reasons or is there another reason?

I ask because, while I do believe in checking for traffic, it can occasionally be very difficult to spot an airplane in 10-15 seconds (if you're first out, 5 seconds if not), 10,000' below, in some poorly understood cone around the DZ, against the right kind of background. I do look around for traffic on the way up but my view from that position is very limited. Pretty much the only time you can clearly see the DZ on jumprun is when you're in the door. Most of the time it's not a problem but sometimes it can take me almost a minute to locate a plane/canopy from altitude even if I know where they are. Am I just blind? Are pilots taught something about this?
http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/02/28/funny-pictures-i-come-with-sarcasm/
Proudly uncool since 1982.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Am I just blind? Are pilots taught something about this?



Yes and no. Keep in mind that the pilots get a lot of practice looking for traffic-in VFR conditions you spend the majority of the time doing just that. Also, conflicting traffic is the hardest to spot because it has the least relative motion. If the other guy isn't moving in the window, you are on a collision course. I don't want to dismiss this as a threat, but look at how often the collisions happen. I'm not being complacent, but "big sky" avoidance works pretty well (It's a big sky, there's lots of room for us all). As a pilot, I'm always willing to hear a jumper in the plane ask if there's any traffic or point other traffic out and ask if I've seen it.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Regarding the first accident report: I can't help but notice that the NTSB blames
>the air traffic controller and pilots and makes no mention of the skydiver. Is this
>because the NTSB and FAA don't want to view skydivers as active participants for
>the purpose of accident reports due to logistical and legal reasons or is there
>another reason?

It is because skydivers are beyond their control; they are considered a hazard that extends beneath a jump aircraft that is under control of the jump pilot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


The safest place to fly for a pilot going over a DZ is flying well below the opening altitude where open parachutes can be seen and better yet doing so and passing downwing over the DZ.



Hollister's LZ is nestled within a valley in the Coastal Range, so that strategy wouldn't be very effective. Most jumpers increase the cypess offset from -310 to -420 due to the hills immediately surrounding the field.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0