Near miss on 182

[jclalor 12]

Last week while at 11k just before the cut in a 182, we had another aircraft pass underneath us from the left side. This other AC was mabe 75 ft directly below us. I was amazed how quickly from the time another jumper spotted it to the point it was underneath us. Another 5 seconds we would have been jumping.
As a fairly new jumper I noticed that while spotting out the open door for other AC is always done, it seems not enough attention is paid to the left side of the AC, at least at my small DZ.
I was also wondering how common a near miss like this is?

[rhys 0]

Not very common!

did you find out where the other aircraft was from?

the pilot is supposed to broadcast to all other aircraft in the area the a parachute drop is about to happen to avoid.....

.....that situation!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

You don't have a hometown or home DZ on your profile, so its a hard question to answer. Ask around to find out how common it is there. Those "where'd he come from?!?!" misses are really scary. I'm both a jumper and a pilot, so when I'm riding up, I'm scanning the sky in all directions for traffic. When I'm flying I'm talking to the nearest radar facility and monitoring the UNICOM (local traffic) freq. I can keep track of anybody who is talking, but not everybody is (or has to-I'm not going into airspace regs here). On the plus side, I bet every jumper on every ride at your DZ is gonna be looking real hard now.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[BillyVance 34]

Near misses are not common, but I bet you'll find more than a few videos on youtube or skydivingmovies of near misses in freefall.

There have been skydiver/plane collisions. The one I remember happened in Massachusetts back in the 90's, I don't remember the exact year, and without researching, I'm just guessing. But apparently a small private plane with its transponder or radio turned off got lost on a flight from Boston to some point west, overflew a DZ right when its plane was letting a load out. The lost plane happened to be flying below and just behind the DZ plane. The guy who jumped, hit the horizontal stabilizer of the lost plane, breaking his ankle, and sending the plane into an unrecoverable spin to the ground. That's my best recollection of the details.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

the pilot is supposed to broadcast to all other aircraft in the area the a parachute drop is about to happen to avoid... that situation!

You're implying that the jump plane did not make his radio call - there is no evidence from his posting that this is true. You should refrain from making negative comments about jump operations if you don't know the facts.

Even when the radio call is made, the other pilots may not be listening on that frequency, and even if they are, it doesn't tell other pilots WHERE that jump plane is, so it's an imperfect process, and no guarantee that close-calls won't happen. You can't just make a radio call and expect the skies to be clear for you.

[billvon 2,396]

>the pilot is supposed to broadcast to all other aircraft in the area the a parachute
>drop is about to happen . . .

Correct. But other VFR pilots are under no obligation to listen.

[riggerrob 558]

One good way to avoid this sort of foolishness is for every jumper to have his/her eyeballs looking out a window for the last two minutes before exit.

[skydived19006 4]

Quote

>the pilot is supposed to broadcast to all other aircraft in the area the a parachute
>drop is about to happen . . .

Correct. But other VFR pilots are under no obligation to listen.

We're in contact with ATC, they always will give us any traffic in the area, obviously regardless of radio, frequency, listening, broadcasting, transponder, etc. We're also close enough to a class C airport that most anyone flying above 1,000' will be on either CATF, or talking with ATC, which for us is Approach Control at ICT.

For us, it's the little ones down low that can tend to cause an issue.

Then there's the loads when my pilot gives two minute notice to ATC, and CATF, two minutes later calls "jumpers away" and ATC responds with traffic. One of my pilots once told me that he gives "jumpers away" a bit before opening the door for this reason.

We had just this situation a couple of weeks ago. "Jumpers away", "82X you have traffic at...", they were able to turn the approaching aircraft away a before he was over the airport. One of these, that under canopy with a tandem student, we see, I talk with him about it etc. The airplane was enough below us, that it wouldn't have been an issue.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[howardwhite 4]

The event occurred at Northampton, MA.
The NTSB report, here, is worth reading.

HW

[riggerrob 558]

Many jump pilots like to announce "two minutes before drop." ... "one minute before drop" ... "jumpers away" ... etc.

The point being that if you make multiple anounncements, sooner or later some one will hear you.

[airdvr 197]

The venerable Dale Gates (his really low D # escapes me at the moment)of Cleveland Sport PC always told us to watch for traffic...all the way up.

We thought it was reasonable.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[jclalor 12]

This was in hollister CA, so we are about 8 miles from the airport when we jump. I know it is standard procedure for the pilot to radio that a jump is in progress for us, I heard that our pilot was very understandably pissed. The whole situation just drove home the fact that we (I) need to always look left as well as right. After 35 jumps here in the last few months I have never seen another AC within a couple miles of us at altitude.

[Gato 0]

We could have had this happen on my first jump of the day this last sunday. Right after the tandem left, a small plane flew through the airport's airspace, and wouldn't respond to our pilot. He flew across our jumprun three times before turning back southwest and flying away.

We are lucky that our pilot that day (Robert) is so head's up - he's also a tandem instructor, and one of the best skydivers around. I usually have my eyes outside looking for shit like that, but I didn't think about it after the tandem went out - I assumed everything was ok. You can bet your ass I'll be watching like a hawk from now on. Although this wasn't a near-miss, and probably wouldn't have been (the other plane was at about 2 grand and we were at 9.5), I think I got a very inexpensive and valuable lesson.

We're 8 miles away from any major aircraft traffic, so we don't get many planes flying through. To be fair, most do respond to the radio warnings, but I can't understand why any pilot wouldn't communicate - this wasn't an antique plane, by the way. It looked a lot like a Piper Comanche from my view, or some other low-wing plane.

T.I.N.S.

[livendive 8]

Quote

The event occurred at Northampton, MA.
The NTSB report, here, is worth reading.

I believe the jumper's name was Alfred Peters and he broke his ankle in the collision...and later sued the air traffic controllers.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rhys 0]

Quote

Correct. But other VFR pilots are under no obligation to listen.

depends on the airspace you are in, some places have a CTAF rule but that is only around aerodromes of a decent size.

In other areas pilots should be listening, but some may not even have a radio at all!

Keep your head up(or down in this circumstance), i suppose.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[bodypilot1 0]

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Right after the tandem left, a small plane flew through the airport's airspace, and wouldn't respond to our pilot.

Jumpers should read up on class Echo airspace.....

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Gato 0]

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Jumpers should read up on class Echo airspace.....

I don't know if you're trying to make fun of me, or not, but that's the way it comes across.

CLASS E Airspace

The fifth airspace to discuss is Class E Airspace which is generally that airspace that is not Class A, B, C, or D. Class E airspace extends upward from either the surface or a designated altitude to the overlying or adjacent controlled airspace. If an aircraft is flying on a Federal airway below 18,000 feet, it is in Class E airspace. Class E airspace is also the airspace used by aircraft transiting to and from the terminal or en route environment normally beginning at 14,500 feet to 18,000 feet. Class E airspace ensures IFR aircraft remain in controlled airspace when approaching aircraft without Class D airspace or when flying on "Victor airways" -- federal airways that are below 18,000 feet. NOTE: VFR aircraft can fly up to 17,500 feet IF they can maintain VFR weather clearance criteria (and the aircraft is equipped to fly at 17,500 feet).

Perhaps you can elaborate on how this relates to the point you were trying to make.

T.I.N.S.

[bodypilot1 0]

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Right after the tandem left, a small plane flew through the airport's airspace, and wouldn't respond to our pilot.

The airports airspace contains "air planes". It's not all your own just because there are jumpers being dropped. Jumpers are responsible for looking for aircraft in the area before they jump. The pilot flying below you is not required to communicate in uncontrolled airspace, and may not have even have been on the same frequency.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[pchapman 261]

I don't know enough about the airspace system and the Hollister area to answer the questions, but I can ask some of the questions necessary to sorting this all out:

Aviation chart for Hollister:

http://skyvector.com/#40-16-2-4072-4362

So it looks like Class E airspace. Hollister airport is non-towered (magenta on map). So there's no control zone at the airport or drop site. There's a parachute symbol at Hollister, as well as one by the nearby town of Tres Pinos - perhaps that's the actual drop location? If so, it is marked on the map and pilots would be advised to exercise caution. Are jump planes in contact with any air traffic facility providing traffic advisories? E.g., Oakland center for this area I think. Centers deal with IFR traffic but when they have time can provide VFR advisories. A light plane zipping along at near 11k probably has a transponder. Some centers might have primary radar to pick up non-transponder aircraft too, although the area looks hilly so a far away radar won't have the best low altitude coverage.

One source of confusion with a drop location away from the airport, is what frequency would pilots be on -- an enroute FSS frequency, a terminal frequency, or the Hollister frequency? Pilots aren't always on the particular local frequency a DZ might want.

Having the drop site away from an airport does complicate things for pilots, despite the parachute symbol on the chart.

[piper17 1]

Drop zones can ensure that their parachuting operation is depicted on sectional charts and that there is a NOTAM filed for skydiving activities during operation.

Theoretically, pilots are supposed to use sectional maps to plan their route of flight and check for current NOTAMs. This is part of the required "pre-flight". If pilots do this, then they would know that skydiving operations are in progress and to avoid that airspace. If they monitor ATC or request flight following, ATC would make them aware of active drop zones as well. It is the pilot who just kicks the tires, lights the fires and goes boring holes in the sky that is the problem.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[JohnRich 4]

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Having the drop site away from an airport does complicate things for pilots, despite the parachute symbol on the chart.

And to confuse things even more, there are cases where the drop zone IS the airport, yet the parachute symbol is AWAY from the airport. In the attached aviation chart for Skydive Houston, the airport is the landing area, yet the parachute symbol is located about 5 miles away from the actual landing site. This could lead transient pilots to believe that flying over the airport is okay, because parachute operations are elsewhere, when in fact that is wrong. Although in our case, you would hope that an airport name containing the word "Skydive" might clue them in...

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Although in our case, you would hope that an airport name containing the word "Skydive" might clue them in...

What is so difficult? I'd rather ask if I would see any sign around that bumping into a skydiver midair......if I were a pilot.

[billvon 2,396]

>What is so difficult?

The airport isn't always called "Skydive X," the drop zone isn't always over the airport and the parachute symbol isn't always where the drop zone is. Brown Field, with a drop zone a few miles away and the symbol about a mile north of there, is an example.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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>What is so difficult?

The airport isn't always called "Skydive X," the drop zone isn't always over the airport and the parachute symbol isn't always where the drop zone is. Brown Field, with a drop zone a few miles away and the symbol about a mile north of there, is an example.

Come on! You know, we know, pilots should know too.

[billvon 2,396]

>Come on! You know, we know, pilots should know too.

That's a bit unreasonable. I would be willing to bet you don't know the CTAF or ATIS frequencies for the airports around your DZ.