Chute deployment handles

[mjosparky 3]

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Mike, the last time I saw you, weren't you jumping a bungee collapsible pilot chute?

Hey Jim,

And when I quit jumping I was jumping a bungee. Worked great for over 20 years.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[piisfish 135]

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Heck, at the drop zones I frequent, everyone goes "Ohhh" and "Ahhh" in adulation of low altitude high speed hook turn landings. ...We even have a competition for it, called "swooping", in which low hook turns are a necessary element of the setup.

Dear John,
either the people doing "swoops" at your DZ's didn't understand how a correct setup is done, the people watching them don't have a clue, or you are particularly reluctant to any evolution (evolution is not necessarily good in my opinion, just a change), or a combination of all of the above.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[piisfish 135]

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what kind of parachutes are you talking about ?
emergency parachutes ?

I was referring to the main chute.

At that time my guess is that most of the rigs main parachutes were static lined and didn't have a setup for a Main Ripcord. But I can be very wrong (most certainly).

The best answers concerning older gear can be found in the History and Trivia section of the forums.

Or ask John Rich, he always has a good answer

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[shropshire 0]

John,
Do you have some pictures of your set-up please?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[wmw999 2,116]

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Ever heard of a ripcord handle blowing loose from it's pocket?

Yes. They were called floating ripcord handles, and we were instructed to follow the cable down to the ripcord.

Gotta maintain the pocket. The elastic stretches.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mr2mk1g 10]

Why in many of the same ways as with a hand deploy PC of course - the PC bounces in your burble and it or the bridle snags your arm, leg, alti, your camera helmet, a hook on your boot, a velcro leg closing. Premature pack opening is not the only way to get a horseshoe malfunction.

In addition, you also have to add in all the ways D-bags or lines can get lodged in the container as the PC or bridle may snag on a flap grommet or on the closing loop grommet or closing loop assembly, especially if poorly stowed.

Each of these scenarios could cause the PC to be attached to the rig or jumper while the D-bag and lines begin to deploy – horseshoe malfunction.

There is nothing about a rip-cord deployed spring loaded main PC which entirely eliminates the possibility of a horseshoe malfunction.

That's one of the reasons why we have free-bags on our reserves - so that if the rip-cord deployed spring loaded PC goes into a horseshoe malfunction your reserve still has a chance of opening.

It's also one of the reasons why your reserve bridle is wide tape so that in the event your reserve PC goes into a horseshoe malfunction there's still a hope that the bridle itself will generate enough drag to deploy the reserve.

[davelepka 4]

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On the other hand, incidents from jumpers not being able to see and reach their BOC pilot chutes, pilot chutes prematurely deploying from their pockets, snagged bridles, pilot chute handles detaching from the pilot chute, worn bungee cord center lines, misrouted bridles, etc., are numerous

Now John, lets be fair here. Ripcord/spring loaded PCs and hand deployed PCs both have their pros and cons.

I learned on a chest mount ripcord, and then spent 7 years at that DZ packing and filming those same rigs. I have seen them packed correctly and incorrectly, and subsequently seen them work as designed and also have various problems.

After 20 jumps I transitioned to hand deploy, and have seen the same range of correct and incorrect packing and use through the years.

There is no difference between the two. I have never had any problems with my hand deploy, and I can imagine that if I was still on a ripcord system, and I gave it the same care and maintainence as I do my hand deploy, that I would have the same to report about that deployment system.

The hand deploy is certainly easier to pack, and provides much lower drag under canopy. In my opinion, it is a better system for the modern sport skydiver.

The defense that your 'last chance' is a ripcord/spring loaded PC, and therefore must be the best, is misleading at best. The reserve system is desinged to be deployed under a wider range of circumstances than your main. Ease or packing or turn-around time is also not a factor in the design of your reserve deployment system.

Your choice of deployment system is a personal choice each jumper makes. There is no right or wrong answer, either system will work fine provided it is used and maintianed correctly.

[mnskydiver688 0]

How about wingsuits? Must be a good reason why every WS manufacture suggests using a throw out system? Also ripcords can become nicked and hang-up on the closing loop if not properly maintained. Also if the ripcord is not cut to the proper length or is dis-lodged in the plane the pilot chute makes a pronounced appearance. Just some stuff I thought of, but because I am young and low jump numbers feel free to completely discredit my post.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[JohnRich 4]

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spring-loaded pilot chute that eliminates the horseshoe malfunctions common with throw-out pilot chutes?

Spring loaded main pilot chutes do not eliminate the possability of a horseshoe malfunction. I wouldn't say such malfunctions were "common" with throw outs either.

Okay, it's possible to have a horseshoe with a spring pilot chute. But you would probably have to be tumbling to snag the pilot chute. How many experienced jumpers deploy while tumbling? None, in normal circumstances. And I'm talking about normal openings here. Horseshoes with a spring pilot chute for a normal freefall body position are far less likely than with a throw-out.

What happens when the container inadvertently opens in freefall on a throw-out rig? You get a very dangerous high-speed horseshoe malfunction.

What happens when the container inadvertently opens in freefall on a spring pilot chute rig? You get a normal opening.

I know which of those two options I'd prefer.

[JohnRich 4]

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Ever heard of a ripcord handle blowing loose from it's pocket?

Yes. They were called floating ripcord handles, and we were instructed to follow the cable down to the ripcord.

I chose the word "blowing" for a reason. Even in head-down dives at 250 mph, a ripcord stays snug in it's pocket. It simply doesn't have any significant wind drag, even at extreme speeds, or with freefall maneuvers like back-to-earth or sit-fly. Can we say the same thing about a monkey fist throwout handle? I think not. There's a reason we call some rigs "freefly friendly" - because other rigs are known to have throw-out handles that come loose in positions where the back is exposed to the wind.

What you're talking about is a handle getting knocked loose from it's pocket. The same thing can happen with a throw-out, so the two methods are equal in that respect. But at least in the case of a ripcord, when it's knocked loose you can still find it because it's bouncing around right in front of you. As you said, all you have to do is follow the cable. Not so with a loose throw-out, which is bouncing around somewhere behind you where you can't see it. Or else if the throw-out comes out of the pocket completely, it has caused a premature deployment which can be dangerous when jumping with other people. With a loose ripcord, it just flops around or blows under your armpit, and does not exert enough force on the pin to cause premature deployment.

[JohnRich 4]

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How about wingsuits? Must be a good reason why every WS manufacture suggests using a throw out system? Also ripcords can become nicked and hang-up on the closing loop if not properly maintained. Also if the ripcord is not cut to the proper length or is dis-lodged in the plane the pilot chute makes a pronounced appearance. Just some stuff I thought of, but because I am young and low jump numbers feel free to completely discredit my post.

Spring pilot chutes are not a good choice for wing suits, since they cast a much larger burble, and the pilot chute is less likely to launch free into solid air.

As far as nicks on closing pins, that can happen with either type of system. You should feel that every time you pack the rig.

An improper length ripcord (too short) is possible which can cause the pack to open just by stretching while wearing the rig. Indeed, that can be dangerous. Anyone who sees a ripcord where the terminal ball on the end of the cable doesn't have any free slack at the handle, should check for that immediately.

For someone with low jumps, you're showing that you're paying attention and learning a lot.

[PinballMilitia 0]

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I always thought throw away PC's/BOC were safer then spring loaded PC/ripcord setup.

Not necessarily. When your life is on the line and you have only one chute remaining, your reserve, how is it deployed? A ripcord. If throw-outs were so great, we would have them for reserves too. But we don't.

You don't suppose it has more to do with allowing the reserve to be deployed by an AAD?

[JohnRich 4]

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I always thought throw away PC's/BOC were safer then spring loaded PC/ripcord setup.

Not necessarily. When your life is on the line and you have only one chute remaining, your reserve, how is it deployed? A ripcord. If throw-outs were so great, we would have them for reserves too. But we don't.

You don't suppose it has more to do with allowing the reserve to be deployed by an AAD?

That is certainly true today, but it is not the explanation for why spring pilot chutes are used on reserves. The same rigging was in place before AAD's became popular with experienced jumpers. I've never seen a throw-out on a reserve, even in the old days before AAD's.

[shropshire 0]

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I've never seen a throw-out on a reserve, even in the old days before AAD's.

Just being picky really - but ..... I seem to remember that the complete front mounted reserve was a Throw out (actually, as it is on my paraglider too)

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[PhreeZone 14]

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I've never seen a throw-out on a reserve, even in the old days before AAD's.

Look up the Wombat. Its was a rig made in Australia in the late 80's/early 90's that had a throw out reserve in a backpack style container.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ficus 0]

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You really don't know what you are talking about.

An MA-1 spring loaded pilot chute will last far longer than a hand deploy and the cost is about the same.

Numbers? Or at least rationale? I'm willing to admit I'm wrong there, but fabric rubbing against the spring seems far more abrasive, even considering coating.

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Do you think because the main is deployed by a ripcord it must have a free bag? Not.

Of course I don't think that. My point was that a freebag is safer than an attached bag, but in the interest of convenience and cost, we keep our D-bags attached to our mains.

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If no one thinks “low turns” are cool what do you call a high performance landing under a sub 110 sq. ft. canopy?

High performance landings are low turns? Which one of us doesn't know what he's talking about again?

[JohnRich 4]

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I've never seen a throw-out on a reserve, even in the old days before AAD's.

Just being picky really - but ..... I seem to remember that the complete front mounted reserve was a Throw out (actually, as it is on my paraglider too)

Okay, that's an exception, from way back. They didn't even have pilot chutes. You just reached in and threw out the entire parachute. That didn't work too well, so they later added spring pilot chutes to them, so that you just pulled the handle and let the spring pilot chute do the rest.

[shropshire 0]

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from way back

Yeap, just like me

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[JohnRich 4]

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John,
Do you have some pictures of your set-up please?

Attached.

[shropshire 0]

Thank you.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Andy_Copland 0]

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Spring loaded main pilot chutes do not eliminate the possability of a horseshoe malfunction.

Than please explain how you can get a horseshoe malfunction with a spring loaded main pilot chute.

Are you serious?

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

This series of posts are an interesting read.

If you were jumping back in the '60's, as this old dinasaur was , you would know that a horseshoe with a ripcord deployed pilot chute was not so uncommon.

John Rich has made a good arguement for his setup. I doubt that he has convinced many people to go back to ripcord deployment.

On my first jump with a non-sprung pilot chute the very first thing that I noticed was no ripcord to stow away. YEEHAAA.

I used to have the packing instructions for the Australian rig that used a hand-deploy reserve pilot chute; I thought of it as an oddity. Also, about 20 yrs ago a guy out at the Sheridan dz made his own rig with a hand-deploy reserve pilot chute. I felt that it was too complicated a set-up and do consider a ripcord launched reserve pilot chute as a very simple system. IMO, when your life is on the line, you can't beat simplicity.

With a hand-deploy pilot chute (throw-out or pull-out) and mounted on the belly, front of legstrap, rear of legstrap or BOC it is almost impossible to launch the pilot chute with the unintended hand. I feel that this is one of the major reasons why modern rigs keep a spring-loaded pilot chute in the reserve; you can activate it with either hand.

Just my thoughts, yours may vary,

JerryBaumchen

[mjosparky 3]

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Numbers? Or at least rationale? I'm willing to admit I'm wrong there, but fabric rubbing against the spring seems far more abrasive, even considering coating.

My rationale is have used one for several hundred jumps and have been involved in test for over 20 years. I have seen it first hand.

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High performance landings are low turns? Which one of us doesn't know what he's talking about again?

The set up and 270 or 360 turn to landing is not done at 5,000 feet is it? No it is done down low, all things being relative.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[ficus 0]

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My rationale is have used one for several hundred jumps and have been involved in test for over 20 years. I have seen it first hand.

So did a hand deploy pilot chute not last you as long? Or is your point that a springloaded PC can last a long time? I don't really understand what you're saying here.

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The set up and 270 or 360 turn to landing is not done at 5,000 feet is it? No it is done down low, all things being relative.

Yes, I do turn to final below 5,000 feet. Forgive me for thinking you were out of touch.

[NotBond 0]

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Ripcord handles located on the front of the jumper were most of the time used for spring loaded pilot chute both for reserve and main like it is still the case for a modern reserve. When Bill Booth invented the springless throw away pilot chute, it needed a pocket and pilot chute which first were located on a belly band with the handle on the right side. Then the pilot chute pocket moved to the front of the leg strap then to the rear. Those 3 locations were involving velcro going from the pocket to the rear right side of the main container to steady the bridle. Later on in mid-eighties came the BOC or in other words the pilot chute handle came on the right bottom corner of the main container and the pilot chute in a pocket stitched below the main container. The BOC advantage is that there is few to none of the bridle exposure and no velcro. The disadvantage is that the handle is no more visible which can cause a problem sometimes. A lot of manufacturers tried their own way to locate a handle to trigger the main parachute opening but the throw away system became the standard and later came the pull out system which is less common.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I seem to have ignited a bit of a fire, but it's all good info being discussed!

Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne