better landings with smaller parachutes?

[jephprospect 0]

Hi. I weigh 160 and have been jumping a 190 spectre 2. I downgraded to a 175 for 2 jumps and the landing was perfect. Went back to 190 and landed on my ass then went back to 175 and landed perfect again. Is there a logical reason why landing a smaller parachute would have better landings? I'm gunna stick with my 175 for a little bit I think

[porpoishead 5]

spectre 2 LOL!!!


because... more speed = more lift


also means you're going faster as well.. more speed also relates to a harder impact if things don't go right or if you do something stupid low.

you should be able to fly and land the bigger canopy before flying the smaller faster one.

think about it this way. you are trading the opportunity of valuable knowledge and learning to fly on a more docile wing that would be more forgiving of mistakes... for a more powerful flare, and you still don't know shit just going faster canopy.




have fun and be safe bro...

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[AggieDave 6]

On the 190 that would put your wingloading at *just* under 1:1. What was the canopy design of the 165? Its not a Spectre, since they make a 150,170 and 190, but nothing in between.

There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to land well on a canopy loaded at or just below 1:1. You should not have to downsize from a good wingloading like that to be able to land better. Most likely its something you should get with your local canopy mentor and/or instructors to debrief your landings. Get them on video and review them.

My guess is that you are now jumping a 175 something in a 9-cell design and you're able to get away with some less than great technique with the other design and slightly more speed.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ronaldo 0]

Did you check your brake line length? Most people switch canopies (usually putting only a couple of jumps in each) and get false comparisons. To really compare both canopies you have to make sure that both are in trim and have equivalent brake line lengths. Your Spectre may have the brake line set too long which doesn't allow you to use all the flare power. The smaller one may be more suited to your arm’s length thus giving you a better flare.
Assuming the set up is equivalent, a smaller canopy will fly faster and will require less toggle input to level off during the flare. This is why it is usually easier to land a smaller wing. Landing a large wing perfectly in a straight in approach usually takes a more precise timing for the flare but mistakes in this case will most likely only get your suit dirty.

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[dragon2 0]

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Your Spectre may have the brake line set too long

That's very vey rare. Most canopies have their brakelines set too short (can't use frontrisers without breaking at the same time) or even way too short (canopy is in slight brake all the time).

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The smaller one may be more suited to your arm’s length thus giving you a better flare.

Eh, no. You just have to flare all the way. A lot of people do not.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Ronaldo 0]

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Your Spectre may have the brake line set too long

That's very vey rare. Most canopies have their brakelines set too short (can't use frontrisers without breaking at the same time) or even way too short (canopy is in slight brake all the time).

If you’re talking about the majority of canopies with hundreds of jumps then I totally agree with you. New canopies as far as I know usually come with longer brake lines to prevent the user from stalling the wing and also to compensate for the shrinkage that will occur in the first hundred jumps. I may be wrong though, wouldn’t be the first time

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The smaller one may be more suited to your arm’s length thus giving you a better flare.

Eh, no. You just have to flare all the way. A lot of people do not.

Sure, but I’m assuming same user and same technique thus no effect in the comparison

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[dragon2 0]

In a new canopy you set the lower brakeline length yourself. The only canopies I know that are deliberately set to prevent stalling are (most) student canopies. Manufacturers provide you with a preferred setting which can be short to start with - spectres f.i. are set pretty short by default while f.i. safires are not. But the user doesn't have to set the default.
You are then responsible to check your own brakelines every once in a while to see when they need replacing, usually the middle steeringlines get replaced a few hundred jumps before the entire lineset, because they shrink the fastest/get damaged the fastest and they are cheap to replace with a lot of gain. The lower steeringline is sometimes replaced too if worn by velcro or too short.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Ronaldo 0]

Didn’t know about Spectres being set short from factory, thank you. I think I projected my reality to answer this, sorry. I Jump in Brazil and I can guarantee you that this line check is extremely rare here. Most people here tend put hundreds of jumps in microline canopies completely ignoring the effects of trim changes. Unfortunately, we have very few FAA riggers in the country and plenty of small Cessna DZs where people jump gear that is not always in the best condition. Regarding factory settings I can guarantee you that in the majority of the cases when someone here buys a new canopy the toggles are placed at the factory default mark and stay there until reline. Unfortunately, very few people can read English and this leads to lack of information.
I do check my lines and adjust them when necessary but I also inspect and assemble my gear and pack my reserve. I’m a mechanical engineer and I can read English well so this helps me to have access to the latest information.

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[jephprospect 0]

I land the 190 all the time just fine. I didn't switch to 175 to be cocky or cuz I was bored my 190 was rented out and I wanted to jump. Just the fact that I landed so well and easily with it and when going back to 190 then to 175 again I feel more comfortable with the 175 and still think its forgiving if I make mistakes which will happend since I'm a newb

[piahenzi 0]

For what its worth I had a Spectre 170 right off student status... biffed in every landing... no matter what I tried... after abt 50 or so jumps, I got a Sabre 150 and the rest is history.. loved it - landed it great all the time, got that tricky 2 stage flare thing down...Now it might have been a better flare on my part, a better brake line setting, more speed/lift/ from the canopy, etc etc that made it all happen but I never looked back.

[Chubba 0]

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For what its worth I had a Spectre 170 right off student status... biffed in every landing... no matter what I tried... after abt 50 or so jumps, I got a Sabre 150 and the rest is history.. loved it - landed it great all the time, got that tricky 2 stage flare thing down...Now it might have been a better flare on my part, a better brake line setting, more speed/lift/ from the canopy, etc etc that made it all happen but I never looked back.

I went from a PD 210 to my Sabre2 170 (go easy on me guys ), I copped a lot of flack considering I had pretty shit landings at the best of times on the PD 210 (and the PD 230).

All 11 of my jumps on the Sabre2 have been soft stand ups... I don't know whether it's the size, the zero-p or what, but likewise I'll never look back. The canopy is just 110% easier to land, it planes out really easy and I can pop back up with ease... something I had NEVER experienced on the PD f1-11 canopies.

[Hausse 0]

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Your Spectre may have the brake line set too long

That's very vey rare. Most canopies have their brakelines set too short (can't use frontrisers without breaking at the same time) or even way too short (canopy is in slight brake all the time).

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The smaller one may be more suited to your arm’s length thus giving you a better flare.

Eh, no. You just have to flare all the way. A lot of people do not.

We had a guy that bought a new spectre, jumped it for 100 jumps and pounded in a LOT. He sold it and the person that bought it started pounding in too. Well an instructor and rigger jumped it and the break lines ended up having to be shortened 12 (!!!!) inches.

[Flyer01 0]

I bought a new Spectre 230. Have about 30 jumps on it. Cannot stall the canopy using toggles extended all the way and I have 33 inch long arms. At full arm extension, the canopy exhibits no stall characteristics.

PD says control lines from factory may be a bit long. From my limited experience, this is confirmed.

[AggieDave 6]

Another misconception is that you HAVE to be able to toggle stall a canopy. That's not completely true. You have to be able to complete a full flare to get the most landing performance out of your canopy, but a good flare does not involve a stall.

Personally I prefer to have a non-swooping canopy (brake lines not lengthened for front riser maneuvers) set up so I have to roll my hands on the bottom of the toggle stroke and hold it to create a flare. That is assuming that there is 3-4" of bow in the control lines off the tail.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[dragon2 0]

12 inches is ridiculous Someone messed up somewhere.

Both my spectres and a friend's I setup came with short (too short for frontrisering) default settings. And we're both girls with short arms too.

Too short is easier to catch than too long though, esp with our A/B license frontriser exercises: canopy starts to buck? Need longer steeringlines

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[erdnarob 1]

As said, smaller parachute for same weight means higher loading then more forward speed. At the flare, speed tranfers partially as lift. However, the Spectre is a 7 cells then its descent is steeper than a 9 cells in other words you go down more vertically than a nine cells. You don't mention what the 175 parachute was but if it's a 9 cells you have more flare than a 7 cells. If it's a Triathlon 175 this is a 7 cells like the Spectre but still smaller that the 190.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Ronaldo 0]

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We had a guy that bought a new spectre, jumped it for 100 jumps and pounded in a LOT. He sold it and the person that bought it started pounding in too. Well an instructor and rigger jumped it and the break lines ended up having to be shortened 12 (!!!!) inches.

When a friend here buys a new (to him) canopy I usually recommend that he deploys it at a higher altitude and spend some time checking the brake line length as follows:
First, make sure there is a bow at the steering lines which indicates that the canopy is achieving its full flight speed.
Second, slowly pull the brakes and check how much input is required to start tail deflection. Estimate this amount using the risers as a ruler.
Third, pull both toggles slowly to full arm extension and see if the canopy comes to a stall. Recovery must be to ¾ brakes.
As most of them are flying larger canopies (not swoopers) I usually tell them to adjust the steering lines so the canopy reaches a stall after 3s or more (tail should not show deflection with toggles up). For average people with larger canopies the stall is usually never reached. This adjustment must be checked periodically as the line shrinks (microline).

The majority of people I see here simply think that factory settings are universal or calibrated for everybody. People have different arm lengths and objectives regarding canopy flight.

Sorry, 100 jumps pounding is just too much for me. Amazing that no one saw something was wrong and helped him.

Safe skies

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[mdrejhon 8]

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Well an instructor and rigger jumped it and the break lines ended up having to be shortened 12 (!!!!) inches.

To the original poster...
This brings up my negative experience with unexpected differences in brake slack...

I got a Sabre 170, great landings at first. T hen when I got my Sabre 170 relined around jump #65 or 70 (or thereabout), I started having dodgy landings. It turned out that the factory recommended brake length had a fair bit of slack, I was starting my flare at the toggle stops, rather than at brake deflection. All canopies I jumped up to that point, had brake lines that were too short, which meant I learned nothing about tail deflection. Naively assumed that all flares always started at the toggle rings. As a result, I just began to flare useless brake line, so the net result was no flare followed by a sudden hard flare as I hit my 'flare band'. I still often stood up, but in dodgy ways, or I popped back upwards then down.

I learned later, to start my pre-position my hands at tail deflection (the point where my brakes no longer has slack) when I'm landing for my flare. On a freshly brake-relined Sabre 170, this ended up being approximately 7 inches (the length between my thumb tip and pinky tip of my outstretched palm) of loose brake line.

I landed just fine under a Sabre 230 in my progression off the Manta 288, it was equally as easy to land as Sabre 210, 190 and 170 and I could plane it out to a tip toe landing at jump 25 even though 230 puts it at a wingloading of approx 0.85 at the time. Even though its brakes were set slightly short (worn student canopy, probably shrunk lines).

I really think that you should make sure you are able to land the bigger canopy, it's probably just a matter of brake settings.

Remember to familiarize the flare band: The beginning of the flare band is not where the toggle stops are -- it is where the brakes start to deflect the tail (rear of the parachute). I made that student mistake of assuming the start of the flare always begin only at the toggle stops. Now I pre-position my hands where the brake lines becomes taut, even if it's 7 inches lower down below the toggle stops. Perfect landings, no matter what size of Sabre I land. I regularly fly my 170, I've landed all standard Sabre sizes between 150 and 230, they all land the same, just with slightly different flare bands and different speeds (smaller Sabre's being faster obviously).

That said, I would agree I'd probably have felt the way you did: I felt safer under the non-relined Sabre 170 than after the lines of my Sabre 170 got replaced with new lines, because I wasn't familiar with the concept of a different start of the flare range. Now it's no problem.

Talk to your instructor about "dynamic flares" and "flare bands".
- Test flaring the canopy at high altitude.
- Pull the brakes down until no longer feel slack. That's the begin of the flare band.
(If there's no slack, your brakes are too short)
- Pull the brakes down until the canopy stalls.
That's the end of the flare band.
(Sometimes it's beyond full arm extension, especially on big canopies. But that's OK, just use full arm extension as the end of your flare band)
(Warning: Stalling can be dangerous: Make sure your instructor has briefed you in safe stall recovery)
- Now practice your flares by flaring from start of the band to the end of the band -- the flare band is NOT necessarily from toggle stops to full arm extension; different canopies (even of the same size and model) may have their flare band in surprising start and stop positions.
- This is on top of the dynamic flares that modern canopies require (also called 'multistage' or 'two-stage' flares by some people), the act of adjusting the flare so that you fly at zero vertical velocity just above the ground, to a pillowsoft landing.
All of course, practiced well above 2000ft.

Dynamic (multistage) flare is something to become very familiar with, along with the ability to adapt to a specific canopy's flare band. So you can adapt to any rental canopy you may need to rent while your gear is in for maintenance.

(To OP) DONT DO THIS without instructor help though -- one can get hurt by not listening to instructor. You may wish to ask simple questions: "What is a flare band?" "On canopies with loose brake lines, where do I begin my flare?" Or even a more elaborate question "How do I adapt my flaring to different canopies that have less or more loose brake lines? Especially if I have to rent various different student canopies that might have differences in brake lines?" That might yield some pretty helpful answers -- so that you can land any reasonable-sized rental canopy safely, especially if waiting for your reserve repack, or cypres maintenance, or gear repair...