Giving toggles to students? Was: Fatality - Skydive Orange

[Rover 9]

Other TI's have reasons to have the students help flare due to the toggle pressure on some tandem canopies. Sometimes TI's are fatigued and need the help. Sometimes TI's prefer to have the student help so they don't get so fatigued in so few jumps.


I don't buy into the 'too fatigued' arguement. If that is truely the case then that TI should not be jumping. If the canopy's toggle pressure is too high, then change the canopy. Use the right tools for the job.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[Liemberg 0]

Since "safe" and "unsafe" are all relative notions I find it not so strange that people "expect to survive" when they jump with a qualified tandem instructor.

Though I avoid the word "safe" in my advertisement I wouldn't want them to think jumping at my place is the same as some form of Russian roulette...

That said, it places a burden on me and my fellow instructors to at least bring our passengers home in one piece. That is why we are getting paid IMHO...

(As one of my colleagues once stated: "They pay me for the first and the last 10 seconds of the skydive - the rest is hobby and for fun...")

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[tkhayes 125]

I always have the students help me flare unless it is turbulent or otherwise tricky winds.

I am there to TEACH them something, not just a joy ride. I open the parachute I show them normal flight, I show them turns and such, and I show them basic navigation back home to the DZ.

I am hands off for some of that, but not much, and they are hands on for ALL of that.

I am older and beat up, I can flare the parachute but it makes me tired and I often cannot flare (perfectly) due to my previous spinal injury. Basically yes, it is hard to do. So I spend more time setting up properly and not getting myself backed into a corner.

So the student helps me. But not before PRACTICING it a couple times on the way down and constantly talking them through it on final approach.

So far no problems. Teach, demonstrate, practice, critique, do it again. Pretty simple stuff. rather than say yay or nay to student helping with the flare, first look at how you actually do it. there is no black and white here.

TK

[flyapitts 0]

On my first tandem my TI let me fly the canopy all the way to the ground. Of course he had his hands on the toggles too in case I did something wrong. I don't see it as a problem as long as the TI gives good instruction on the ground before you hop in the plane and also gives instruction under canopy at a high altitude. It is true that everyone who goes for a tandem jump has something different in mind, like me, I wanted to see if this was something I wanted to get in to doing all the time. I don't think that a person just going for a ride should flare because that is an added risk for them but if you are jumping to see if you'd like to jump all the time then yeah you should be able to flare and land. It's all part of learning for a student/ potential student but not for someone who just wants bragging rights for jumping from 13,000 feet.

[tombuch 0]

Right on TK.

Tandem jumps ought to be about teaching students and growing the sport. Too often we advertise tandems as carnival rides, and too often that’s the kind of student we get. But just ‘cause they come to make one jump, doesn’t mean we have to let them leave the airport feeling the same way. Magic happens when a good instructor creates a sense of accomplishment and belonging within the student.

The same was true ‘back in the day when all we had available was static line. Heck, I made my first S/L jump in 1979 with no intention of ever making another. The experience was thrilling, and I quickly locked onto the challenge of making my first freefall (clear and pull). After that I just wanted to hit the mystical ten second delay, and then I focused on getting my license. Once I had my “A” I wanted to stick with the sport just long enough to fly a camera. I don’t know what happened after that, but somehow I amassed 4,800 jumps, 1,000 tandems, and a boatload of ratings and experiences. That was never the plan, but I had some great instructors who helped me to see the light, get motivated, and then stay motivated beginning with my very first jump.

When a student comes out for that first tandem they often think of skydiving as something extreme, and way beyond their capabilities. A good instructor will let them pull the ripcord, and if necessary will help guide their hand and then praise whatever effort there was. The same is true of canopy flight. A good instructor will share the experience and let the student fly as much as possible without increasing the level of risk. A student who participates will be far more likely to return for jump number two, and maybe even jump number 4,801.

And that’s what it’s all about. My instructors back in 1979 just wanted to create more playmates so they would have friends to fly with. The same should be true today. We should be teaching for the future, and not just hauling cargo for a couple of quick bucks.

My hat’s off to all the dedicated instructors who place the student experience first, and who actively engage the student in as much of the jump as possible.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[feuergnom 22]

rover & tkhayes - both 27 years in the game and on the very opposite ends of the scale

so who's riding onthe front? a punter or a student? i'll take the student-lane any time

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[BMFin 0]

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Tandem jumps ought to be about teaching students and growing the sport. Too often we advertise tandems as carnival rides, and too often that’s the kind of student we get. But just ‘cause they come to make one jump, doesn’t mean we have to let them leave the airport feeling the same way.

Yes, I agree that it would be ideal to teach the tandem student as much as possible on this one jump.

However, how often do you or anyone else actually teach the student basic canopy flight theory prior to the jump ? Im not so convinced that you can teach a 1st jumper those things in 2 minutes while under canopy while they have a lot of things going through their mind. Shouldnt you first teach the stuff in theory and after that go try it out ?

Most of the times tandem student wont know for example:

-that low turns are dangerous
-you would want to land upwind
-what the term "upwind" even means

These are just examples of many many things that the student wont learn anyways with participating on the flaring process, unless someone teaches them theory.

[tombuch 0]

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Shouldnt you first teach the stuff in theory and after that go try it out ?

Most of the times tandem student wont know for example:

-that low turns are dangerous
-you would want to land upwind
-what the term "upwind" even means

These are just examples of many many things that the student wont learn anyways with participating on the flaring process, unless someone teaches them theory.

Nope. We should teach as much as reasonable possible on the very first tandem, and let the student know how easy it can be to learn this exciting sport.

Often teaching material successful on the first jump is simply a matter of how it is approached and discussed under canopy. It needs to be simple, and in terms the student already understands. There is no need to get into theory, or geek out on technical stuff, but a good overview of what is happening will make the jump more enjoyable for the student, and will give them the satisfaction of understanding what is taking place. For example:

(-that low turns are dangerous) "...Here we go, we will set up on a long approach straight ahead, using the grass as a runway, just like airplanes do."

(-you would want to land upwind) "...And we'll steer the parachute over to this way for a bit, because we want to land facing into the wind whenever possible, that gives us the slowest and most comfortable landing."

(-what the term "upwind" even means) ...No need to really discuss the term unless the student is a pilot or has some other aviation or sailing experience. It's plenty to just talk through what is being done, with a focus on steering and navigating so the landing is faced into the wind.

None of that is complex, or overwhelming or demanding on either the student or instructor. It just takes a tiny bit of effort and a desire to teach.

The first tandem is really an exposure event. If we can give the student simple information and get them involved they will be far more likely to return. And, when they make the next jump or take the ground school the experience of the first jump will provide the instructor with an analogous experience, and old knowledge to attach new knowledge to. Simple things like what the initial exit feels like and how to overcome the inevitable overload, what it feels like to pull a ripcord, what a parachute looks like, and what a slider is. How to pull a toggle, and what happens to the parachute when you do, how to find the drop zone from the air, and how to (and the importance of) keeping track of other canopies in the air. The importance of flying some kind of a pattern, and navigating from one place to another with intent, rather than just being blown randomly. Gosh, there is so much that can be taught at the introductory level if we just make a tiny little effort!

If you take the USPA Coach course (or any good course on instructing) you will have a better idea of how people learn, and how we can structure our tandems to foster knowledge gain and return business.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[peek 20]

Damn, TK and Tom are doing such a good job of explaining these things that I can't even think of anything to add, and I'm not often at a loss for words about tandem training! I hope any of you that have any doubts about training tandem students on their first jump are picking up on this stuff.

[diablopilot 2]

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Most of the times tandem student wont know for example:

-that low turns are dangerous
-you would want to land upwind
-what the term "upwind" even means

They will if you teach them those things, and it is quite possible, to teach them in the 6 to 8 minutes a tandem spends under canopy the first jump. I do it just about every tandem jump.

They do learn, and many do remember. Some learn the what is being taught the first time, and some need to be refreshed a few times, but they all learn, even if its just the fact that they CAN learn how to do this.

For the record, my fist time tandem students are involved in flying and navigating the canopy from as soon as I can gt the toggles to them, to somewhere between 1000 and 700 feet, and if they are particularly "switched on" we may land the parachute together. It's what I've found works for me.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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These aren't "students." They've got gift certificates for a fun ride.

Are you saying that at this particular dropzone (Orange) they are mere passengers? I see you live in Alexandria. Is this your home dropzone and you know this is the attitude or management?

That would seem strange to me. After all this is the home of the USPA ISP.

I positively concur with Gary on this one. NONE of my students (whether AFF/TM/or SL) are considered "Passengers". As a rated tandem instructor you are supposed to show your students what handle does what and they are supposed to have a visible altimeter.

I ask EVERY single one of my tandem students if they would like to deploy the parachute and I put the toggles in the hands of all except the most-reluctant students down to 1000 feet so that they can fully appreciate the skydive and the dynamic of flying the parachute.

It sounds like the original poster jumps at a tandem mill. Too bad for the students.

Ultimately, the more of the actual process you let a tandem student participate in, the better a chance your dropzone will have in retaining that person as a freefall student.

Chuck Blue
Performance Skydiving/Z-Flock Wingsuit School
D-12501, AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA

[rwieder 0]

I went through the old Tandem Progression, AFP program. I got to land and stear the tandem canopies (4 Tandems) landing 3 of the 4. My first jump in the AFP program, i stood up the very first landing. I am a staunch supporter of "Learning Tandem Progression Programs"