New canopy = worst landings ever?!

[kalaniwavo 0]

I just recently put together my first rig. The main is a new Pilot 210 loaded about 1.0/1.0 here's the issue.. I have 60 jumps and have always felt reasonably comfortable under canopy. I started on a nav240, then nav220, and a nav 200 for the past 10 jumps or so. I had 2 or 3 hard landings about 40 jumps ago, but everything since then has been very smooth until this new canopy

I've jumped it twice and both landings were by far the worst ever.. definantly crash and burn landings. on the first jump I did a controlablity check up high and everything was good, then as I turned onto final something didn't feel right. with my limited experience I wasn't exacly sure what was going on, except that I had to constantly make heading corrections all the way to the ground. and then squeeze out a quick flare as the canopy was in a slight turn.

on the second jump, I really tried to pay attention to control input up high and see what was happening. the only noticable difference I could find was after turning left 90 degrees and releasing the toggle back to full flight the canopy would turn back to right atleast another 45 to 60 degrees. so to turn to a heading I would either have to oversteer by a good 45 degrees or after the turn release the toggle input very slowly.

as for the second landing I was making corrections all the way to the ground. one of the instructors said I pulled the left toggle all the way to my shoulder and he thought for sure the canopy would turn into a dive but for whatever reason it didn't.


I wish I could provide more information but with my limited experience I'm just not sure whats happening. Is a new Pilot 210 that much different from a NAV 200? could this be my own input causing these problems or the canopy not being broken in? I really don't know, but for the first time I'm spooked about jumping this canopy and I'm not exactly sure what to do...

I am REALLY glad I didn't listen to my freinds and get a Pilot 188! any info will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Nick

[redramdriver 0]

Band new canopies, are still made by people. I have had a reserve do the same as your main, sent it back to the manufacturer...all the lines were out of trim. Replaced with an entirely new canopy...so. Maybe get the trim checked. It could be one of the issues. MY .02.

So, you bring your beer?

Its 5 o'clock somewhere
POPS #9344

[VideoFly 0]

You might want to speak to the instructors at your DZ and have them assess your concerns. You might have them jump the canopy to see if they notice any problems. You might be having issues with shifting in your harness or uneven brake input that an instructor might notice as you land or later while watching videos of the canopy being landed. Either way, it is probably best to work on this with your instructors who are there with you rather than seeking answers from people who only have your written description to work with.

[fmmobley 0]

I had a brand new Pilot that came with a built-in turn. It wasn't as dramatic as what you described however.

I would suggest you ask one of the instructors to jump your rig and see what they think. If they agree that there is something wrong with the canopy, send it back.

In my case Aerodyne was very helpful. They ended up replacing my canopy with another and I am very happy with it.

... Marion

[rushmc 18]

My first new square canopy was a Sabre2 230. It dam near killed me. Not because it was a bad canopy but because I did not know this canopy and I did not have the skill to fly or (more importantly) land it.

Fast forward.. I took a canopy course (mine happened to be the one Brian Germain put on) and I will say that taking a canopy course saved me at the very least a trip to the emergency room.


All equipment in this sport has a learning curve. I thought I knew what I was buying and gettting into when I bought my first square.

I was wrong

And by the way,

Thanks Brian. I owe you!

(and there are many canopy instrutors that can teach you to get home safe. The one that saved me just happen to be Brian)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[in2jumping 0]

I personally hate the Pilot canopy it has a ass backwards very very deep flare point, 80% of the flare is in the last 20% of the toggle stroke. Think the Nav is just basically a student Silhouette and has a high flare point so the flare is going to be very different on the Pilot.

If I where you I would make sure there is no slack in the brake lines on the Pilot and make sure you are finishing your flare ALL the way on the Pilot.

[mdrejhon 8]

Changes in line trim threw me off when my canopy got relined and my landings were pretty squirrelly for a few jumps (mostly standups, but very unstable flare). It was correct trim, but the flare band was unexpected -- I needed to start the flare about 7 inches below the toggle stops, so I basically prepositioned my hands where the slack disappeared (tail deflection), a tip that I learned. This likely wont apply to you, but it's a 'gotcha' that can come with new canopies, or when a canopy gets relined.

However, it does sound like your canopy is out of trim, due to the built in turn. Get that looked into.

[dragon2 0]

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If I where you I would make sure there is no slack in the brake lines on the Pilot

Bull. If you don't have any slack the brakelines are too short. You want a slight bow in your brakelines in full flight. With both frontrisers pulled as far as you can the brakelines should still not -quite- pull on the tail. Then they are the right length.

Too many people flying around with too short brakelines so the canopy doesn't even fly full flight PD canopies seem especially prone to this, esp older ones with shrunken brakelines. Aerodyne, Icarus, Precision have their factory setting longer and the flare is deeper. Not "bad" and certainly not a reason to shorten your brakelines!! Just personal preference and most PD canopies I see (sabres, stilettos) need their brakelines LENGTHENED. Otherwise the canopy will buck in frontrisers, a common problem when our new jumpers do their A + B license canopy control excersises, or when you take a canopy control course (even a lot of our swoop canopies were set up too short!).

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make sure you are finishing your flare ALL the way on the Pilot.

You should do this on all canopies

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[in2jumping 0]

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Bull. If you don't have any slack the brakelines are too short. You want a slight bow in your brakelines in full flight. With both frontrisers pulled as far as you can the brakelines should still not -quite- pull on the tail. Then they are the right length.

Too many people flying around with too short brakelines so the canopy doesn't even fly full flight PD canopies seem especially prone to this, esp older ones with shrunken brakelines. Aerodyne, Icarus, Precision have their factory setting longer and the flare is deeper. Not "bad" and certainly not a reason to shorten your brakelines!! Just personal preference and most PD canopies I see (sabres, stilettos) need their brakelines LENGTHENED. Otherwise the canopy will buck in frontrisers, a common problem when our new jumpers do their A + B license canopy control excersises, or when you take a canopy control course (even a lot of our swoop canopies were set up too short!).

My bad, what I meant was any unnecessary excess brake line. Think this is especially important on the Pilot because of the fact that most of the flare in the last part of the toggle stroke.

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You should do this on all canopies

And with most canopies you can get away with a half ass flare and still get a decent landing. What I found on the Pilot is if you don't finish the flare you are not going to get a very good landing, and if you have a lot of excess brake line it is going to put the flare sweet spot very very deep in the toggle stroke. I think that is what kalaniwavo might be having a problems with coming and a PD canopy that has a much higher sweet spot on the flare.

[airdog07 0]

square canopy vs. elliptical canopy is different in how it fly, elliptical if your are not use to it it is more touchy than normal nav. you can over correct it lot easy and it is lot faster for same size, if you have smaller size it well be much faster so you have to hold off on flaring much longer (if you flare early you well run out on flare in the end and crash and burn) or if your not use to the speed you end to half brake to slow the speed down and when come time to flare you only have half brake left so you crash and burn ?

"A peaceful heart leads to a healthy body; jealousy is like cancer in the bones ..."

[gearless_chris 1]

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If I where you I would make sure there is no slack in the brake lines on the Pilot

Bull. If you don't have any slack the brakelines are too short. You want a slight bow in your brakelines in full flight. With both frontrisers pulled as far as you can the brakelines should still not -quite- pull on the tail. Then they are the right length.

Too many people flying around with too short brakelines so the canopy doesn't even fly full flight PD canopies seem especially prone to this, esp older ones with shrunken brakelines. Aerodyne, Icarus, Precision have their factory setting longer and the flare is deeper. Not "bad" and certainly not a reason to shorten your brakelines!! Just personal preference and most PD canopies I see (sabres, stilettos) need their brakelines LENGTHENED. Otherwise the canopy will buck in frontrisers, a common problem when our new jumpers do their A + B license canopy control excersises, or when you take a canopy control course (even a lot of our swoop canopies were set up too short!).

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make sure you are finishing your flare ALL the way on the Pilot.

You should do this on all canopies

You're right on with this one. My Nitron factory brake settings were perfect. The pilot 188 I jumped was set so tight the tail was almost pulled in full flight. My Comp Cobalt was almost as bad, I could only pull about an inch of front riser before it bucked. I would've assumed that a competition canopy would be either set up to use front risers or not have the toggles not set at all like my Nitron was (there was setting dimensions but no finger traps). I have also heard that you need to have additional speed to make an Aerodyne canopy land nicely. I never landed the one I jumped straight in so I don't know from experience.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[dragon2 0]

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I have also heard that you need to have additional speed to make an Aerodyne canopy land nicely

"An Aerodyne canopy"? Which one would that be?
Having jumped multiple sizes of triathlons and pilots, I call serious bull on that one

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[AggieDave 6]

I have not jumped a modern canopy design that needed additional speed to land nice. That's literally just about every sport canopy made by PD, Aerodyne and Icarus.

Even a Velo and a VX loaded 2.5+ landed nicely straight in!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[gearless_chris 1]

"They" were talking about Pilots but said it was all Aerodyne canopies. The only ones I've jumped is one Pilot 188 (3 jumps), and a Skymaster 185 (1 jump). They were fine for me but I was glad I was in the peas with the Skymaster (it has a lot of jumps on it for my wingloading and not being a full ZP). "They" were at the picnic tables at Summerfest, I don't know their credentials, they probably think the only good canopies are made by PD.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[dragon2 0]

BTW the one canopy I have lots of jumps on that speed makes life a whole lot easier for is the PD Lightning, and even so I landed mostly straight-in.

The Pilot is currently our most popular canopy here for people buying their first gear, at least for those with some money to spend as they are mostly new canopies. They all seem to love theirs and none of them add any speed whatsoever for landing

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[gearless_chris 1]

The pilot is on our list for new jumpers as well. The only bad canopy I've jumped is my Comp Cobalt, and I still love it, if I'm still conscious after it opens. I wouldn't recommend Atair for anyone, except this one guy I don't like.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[kalaniwavo 0]

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I had a brand new Pilot that came with a built-in turn. It wasn't as dramatic as what you described however.

I would suggest you ask one of the instructors to jump your rig and see what they think. If they agree that there is something wrong with the canopy, send it back.

In my case Aerodyne was very helpful. They ended up replacing my canopy with another and I am very happy with it.

I jumped the rig again today and while under canopy I let go of the toggles and checked to make sure my leg straps and harness were even. The canopy then began a slight right turn. I looked at the canopy and I didn't see anything out of the ordinary. The canopy didn't looked deformed anywhere and the lines looked straight and the brake lines were even.

Durind approach to landing I had to apply left toggle input intermittently to correct the uncommanded turn until a decent flare height and then I flared evenly and wakled out the landing, although it was obvious in the flare that the canopy was just slightly begining to turn right again.

My rigger inspected the entire canopy and rig and could find nothing wrong. What was the final verdict on your canopy? Did Aerodyne ever give you an answer of what was causing the turn? I just want to make sure I have all my bases covered before I call Aerodyne. This seems really strange and it would be nice if there was a "smoking gun" but it seems a little more complicated.

Thank you to everyone who responded!
Nick

[peggs82 0]

I would really recommend that you have 1 or 2 other people jump it first... Just to make sure before you send it away.

If they agree with you, then there is no shame in calling up Aerodyne. They have a great reputation for getting things sorted out.

Good luck

[RiggerLee 61]

There's more to the canopy then the line set. The problem may lie in the fabric it self. The fill fibers that run across the roll of fabric may be scewed at a diagonal across the roll. Or bowed across it. Every one tries to be carefull with the fabric they use but all rolls are crooked to some degree. There are tricks to flipping the panels and other shit but the bottom line is that some times you get one that has a turn. There really isn't any way to spot it on the ground. You have to jump it.

If you want to test it start by eliminating all the variables. Starting with you and even your rig. Hard ware can slip and some times lift webs can even get measured un even, Don't start I've seen it. Send it up with some one of high experence, perferable a rigger, have him look at his three rings under canopy to make sure they are level. He'll need to check for a turn in several diffrent flight modes. He should know what to do or find some one that has done more test jumping.

If he finds a problem, I'm guessing that he will, call up aerodine and have him there to articulate what he found. Send the canopy back to them with a writen report and I'm sure they will be willing to work with you to fix this. They'll test jump it but I'm thinking call you back asking if you want to change colors.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[fmmobley 0]

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...What was the final verdict on your canopy? Did Aerodyne ever give you an answer of what was causing the turn? I just want to make sure I have all my bases covered before I call Aerodyne. ...

In my case, Aerodyne asked me to send the canopy to them with my risers attached. There was a form to fill out. At Aerodyne, they jumped it and determined that there indeed was a problem and it was not something they could repair. They said they would replace it at no charge. They would either let me custom order a new canopy or get one they had in stock. I picked one they had in stock. They returned it to me with my risers attached and even reimbursed me for the cost of shipping it to them. This whole process took less than two weeks.

They never told me the exact nature of the problem and it didn't occur to me to ask. The replacement works perfectly. I have over 200 jumps on it now. I really love my Pilot and recommend it, and I was impressed with the customer service at Aerodyne.

Good luck. Tell us how it all turns out.

... Marion

[kalaniwavo 0]

My rigger jumped it today and confirmed everything, called Aerodyne and they said they have had some recent issues with built in turns on the Pilot and they will ship a new one out once I return this one.. glad to have this figured out and learned a couple things in the process. Thanks!

Nick