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Braz933

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I plan on going through AFF in the spring of 09. Please don't stop reading because I am less than a newbie! This is a serious question. Apparently, it is common to buy used gear for your first rig. Why?

Although I have much to learn, at this point I am considering buying new gear shortly after AFF. Why is that considered a bad idea?

I was considering a PD Silhouette for a main, in the appropriate size of course. Would this be a bad choice for a newbie? Based on what I have read, I think I would be happy jumping this for at least a couple years. Is that way off base?

I am willing to spend money to have gear I am confident in. I am, I would think, understandably hesitant about used gear. There are many variables, and I feel used gear leaves many of them unaccounted for.

Bottom line is...I would rather spend the money and KNOW that I am jumping a trustworthy rig, rather than rely on some info posted in a classified add.

Please help me sort this out...

Braz

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I plan on going through AFF in the spring of 09. Please don't stop reading because I am less than a newbie! This is a serious question. Apparently, it is common to buy used gear for your first rig. Why?



Its cheaper then buying a new rig.

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Although I have much to learn, at this point I am considering buying new gear shortly after AFF. Why is that considered a bad idea?



Can't say for sure since I don't know how it works in US exactly but first you would be jumping something big with a small wingloading. Then move on to something smaller in small steps. If you would buy it new every time it would cost quite a lot of money.

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I am willing to spend money to have gear I am confident in. I am, I would think, understandably hesitant about used gear. There are many variables, and I feel used gear leaves many of them unaccounted for.

Bottom line is...I would rather spend the money and KNOW that I am jumping a trustworthy rig, rather than rely on some info posted in a classified add.



Like it was already said. Don't jump it unless you have a qualified rigger check it. I'm the 4th owner on my current rig and I don't have trust issues jumping it as I had it checked and the logs didn't have anything odd looking in them.

Again I don't know the way things work in US but you probably have student/rental gear you use before you get your own gear. That stuff is used gear. Yet you still keep jumping it.
Your rights end where my feelings begin.

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I plan on going through AFF in the spring of 09. Apparently, it is common to buy used gear for your first rig. Why?

I am considering buying new gear shortly after AFF. Why is that considered a bad idea?

I was considering a PD Silhouette for a main, in the appropriate size of course. Would this be a bad choice for a newbie?

I am, I would think, understandably hesitant about used gear.
Braz



Skydive first, buy later.
It is possible that you will not like skydiving.
Talk to your instructors (and riggers) when you have finished the AFF-course.
Most people only buy gear after they have learned to skydive.
First you need a big, slow parachute, later you (probably) want something faster (smaller).

It's like buying a car before getting your drivers license.

The silhouette is a very good canopy to start with (after finishing the course).

Do not spend your money now, take the course and evaluate your needs after some jumps.

Jurgen

BTW used modern gear is a very good choice to start with.

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Hehe, I think you've got a shock to the system coming up. You think your student rig will be new? You'll probably find that for a whole load of jumpers, the rigs they jumped as a student were the worst pieces of crap they ever jumped! That's not to say they were unsafe... just that even their second hand first rig was newer and in better condition.

There's nothing wrong with second hand gear. Every rig, whether new or old, has to be inspected by a rigger and certified as airworthy before it can be jumped.

If you've got the money - knock yourself out and buy new. Someone's got to fuel the newbie gear second hand market. :P

If you have a budget with limits however, (and lets face it, all but 1 or 2% of us have some kind of limit), take the money you would have spent on a brand new rig and spend it instead on a second hand rig AND canopy coaching.

Overall, you'll be safer. If you can afford both - crack on, like I said - someone's got to feed the market.

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Although I have much to learn, at this point I am considering buying new gear shortly after AFF. Why is that considered a bad idea?



You can easily spend $1000-$2000 on rental fear waiting for your new gear to be delivered, may lose thousands more selling it quickly once you down size because although you paid $6000+ there's a lot of nice lightly used gear out there for just $3000, and be out $10,000+ in medical co-insurance payments and lost wages (not to mention permanant aches and pains) if you try to avoid that by getting gear you "won't outgrow soon" but is too advanced to be safe for your experience level.

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I was considering a PD Silhouette for a main, in the appropriate size of course. Would this be a bad choice for a newbie? Based on what I have read, I think I would be happy jumping this for at least a couple years. Is that way off base?



If you're a guy who only suffers from an average level of testosterone poisoning you'll want something smaller and more fun within the first year, and be ready for the next smaller size in 6-12 months when jumping at an average rate of 100-200 jumps a year.

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I am willing to spend money to have gear I am confident in. I am, I would think, understandably hesitant about used gear. There are many variables, and I feel used gear leaves many of them unaccounted for.



Used gear is safer because there's a good chance some one else will have found the manufacturing errors (I know one jumper whose harness wasn't sewn togther properly and may have failed fatally due to the problem), design problems (they've had reserve pilot chutes fail to clear the container. oops!), and assembly errors (little things like the reserve lines routed incorrectly).

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Bottom line is...I would rather spend the money and KNOW that I am jumping a trustworthy rig, rather than rely on some info posted in a classified add.



You get the gear inspected by your favorite local rigger so you're not relying on an ad which claimed the rig was only jumped by a little old lady on Sundays on the way to church. They're used to acting as escrow agents for gear sales.

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Please help me sort this out...

Braz



Get a used rig once you've reached a wing loading of a pound per square foot. If you can't find something which fits consider having a harness resized or replaced by the manufacturer.

When you're nearly ready to down-size to a canopy that's too small for your first rig (which could happen at 400 jumps and 2 or 3 years in the sport) order something that's shiny in your colors and don't worry if it takes 5-6 months to get delivered. You can keep that rig until it wears out. I've jumped the same rig size for the last decade.

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When you're nearly ready to down-size to a canopy that's too small for your first rig (which could happen at 400 jumps and 2 or 3 years in the sport) order something that's shiny in your colors and don't worry if it takes 5-6 months to get delivered.



Whoah, that is an eerily accurate description of what just happened to me.

Could it be that the advice of the more experienced is actually right, and people really do follow pretty similar paths? I'm not special after all! Who knew?!

Joel
Fuelling the big-lad end of the newbie gear market but no regrets :P
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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Hi!

He's got a point about new jumpers buying new gear that "they won't outgrow", getting something that is too small is never a good idea.

The Silhouette is a great beginner's canopy, I love mine, and I got it used with 600 jumps on the fabric and 150 on the lines, which means that it is very easy to pack and still opens and flies like new. A used Silhouette with good lines is a good choice.

:)
Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

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Just a thought.

If you have the wallet to prepay brand new custom gear, you have the money to get exactly what you want in "new" used gear.

My first rig is arriving in 4 days.

Infinity container (18 jumps)
Sabre2 170 (48 jumps)
PD Reserve (0 jumps)
Cypres2 (6 months old)

If you have the money, you can get EXACTLY what you want... the exact canopy, the exact size, a top quality container, 0 jump reserve and a new/near new AAD.

The only thing you will miss out on is the colours (hey they might be good anyway) and the harness sizing (you can resized if it's really bad). The bonus is you get to jump it now...

I'm with you, I never wanted to jump an old used rig, I didn't want to buy a less then ideal canopy or a different size then I desired... so I paid top dollar (but still considerably less then new) to get exactly what I want with low jump numbers.

Something to think about.

Go jump... get to know your gear.

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Like some on here have said, just because it's old doesn't mean it's not safe. There are guys at my dropzone who have been jumping for 30+ years. The still use gear that's 20+ years old. As long as the gear is well taken care of it's still very safe to use. Just make sure you have it inspected by a rigger and you'll be fine. :)

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Bottom line is...I would rather spend the money and KNOW that I am jumping a trustworthy rig, rather than rely on some info posted in a classified add.



You could look at that from another perspective;

If you get a brand new rig, you have no idea what kind of manufacturing errors it could concievably contain. If you get one that's been regularly jumped by someone else then it's a fair indication (unless it's covered in blood and shit and stuff) that it works.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Ok.. so lots of "2 cents" in this thread.. heres mine. I agree with jump first, decide if it is something that you are going to want to get into ( no use in spending money on new or used and then not being able to get out of it what you put into it/$$ wise) If you decide that its the sport for you.. and trust me, its VERY addictive, then go ahead and get your first rig. Of course size appropriate. Used is usually more readily available with out a shipping/ordering delay, as long as you are patient with piecing your rig together ( I first purchased my container used Wings 11, then my main a used triathalon 175 and then my reserve a used PD 160, new Vigil AAD, total cost $3050.00 and took about 2.5 months to get together) Unless $$ is not a matter AND you dont mind stock colors for your gear, you will be looking at a delay becuz of manfacture time and order back up for the given compay(s). Most reputable places like square1.com, sunshine factory etc...dont sell gear that is NOT inspected by one of their riggers, but would recomend before you buy, make sure you have it checked by a rigger. Also ask what the return policy is for any used gear that you might be looking at getting. Any reputable seller will have a retrun policy of sorts. Anyway.. thats my 2cents. Thanks for reading.. blue skies to all
If flying is piloting a plane.. then swimming is driving a boat. I know why birds sing.. I skydive.

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I was considering buying my first rig new, but thanks to my friend, I bought a great used rig for a cheap price through the classifieds.

If you buy new now, your main is going to have to be big. My main is a 190, which loads about a 1.1 for me. Let me tell you, going from a student Navigator 220, to a Spectre 190, was pretty scary. Now, after putting a fair number of jumps on it, I know I'll want something smaller a couple hundred jumps down the line. If you buy new now, you're going to be stuck with new gear for a long time. The main you get you may not like, or after 100 jumps is too slow for you. Well, if you want to downsize your main, most likely you'll have to downsize the rest of your rig, including the container. With a smaller container, you'll probably have to get a smaller reserve as well.

Put up a wanted ad in the classifieds, stating what you want exactly. Within a few days, you should get several responses, and many options to choose from.

On a last note, I find jumping a used rig to be safer. You can get the rig inspected by a rigger before you buy it, and if it's used, you know it has saved someone's life multiple times. That brand new rig haven't saved anybody's life yet, you sure you want to risk that?
Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

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I have done 2 tandems, and I am more than certain that I want in on this! I know tandems don't count, but my point is that jumping solo is surely WAY more fun than a tandem. So I can't imagine anything changing my mind about the sport. I never intended to buy gear until AFF is done anyway.

Thanks for all the advice. Many good points made, and taken. So used gear it will be.

Thanks,
Braz

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Whatever you do, if you buy new, don't get your name stitched onto the rig. ;)



This is for resellability, yes? Are there particular areas of the rig that can be custom embroidered that are easily (and cheaply) replaceable if the rig is resold? I'm thinking perhaps riser covers, or main cutaway pillow.

Personally I'm thinking that when I buy new, I'll have "D22" put on it.. since that's the name I've kinda been stuck with at my local DZ.. :D
Looking for newbie rig, all components...

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Mudflaps take at least a rigger to replace, handles are replaced in the matter of a few seconds. If you want to personalize a rig that you see yourself selling in a short time go with the handles. The mudflap is the next least invasive. The full side wall logos is about the worst thing to do except for ordering pink gear. Pink gear you might as well just about give away even if new.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Embroidered mud flaps are easy to replace on most Rigging Innovations products (Talon, Telesis and Voodoo) but a pain to replace on most other rigs.
Mind you, replacing mud flaps requires a Master Rigger with a bit of experience on container repairs.

On the other hand, replacing embroidered cutaway pillows is a simple job for a Rigger A.

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If possible, I would buy new; I did when I was a newbie. If you plan ahead and choose a sensible size that would give you say a 1.15 wing load and take a canopy course, you can grow into your rig and get a lot of use out of it. I started jumping my first rig on my 35th jump. It is also good forward planning to have a container that would accommodate a canopy one size smaller (i.e. the Javelin that holds a 190 can also hold a 170).
I would definitely agree with all other postings on here as to having both used or new rigs fully checked by a rigger. My story is that on about my 90th jump (55th on my shiny new rig) just as I was beginning to flare I felt the right brake line pop loose. Fortunately, I had just enough experience to instantly know to fully release my left toggle and grab rear risers. I ended in a “tuck and roll” student style landing. I went to the rigging shop and they saw that the toggle had not been properly tied when initially put together (they also showed how easily the left would come undone). The shop that put my new gear together had incorrectly tied both steering toggles! They said they had seen this before and the last person had broken their back.
"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

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If you plan ahead and choose a sensible size that would give you say a 1.15 wing load and take a canopy course, you can grow into your rig and get a lot of use out of it.



What if they don't "get" landing right away and a 1.15 wingloading is too fast for their ability? What if they only weigh 100 pounds? What if they live and jump at 5000 feet msl? A 1.15 wingloading at 25 jumps is not "sensible" - it's doable at a low field elevation for some people (with solid training and some "natural" ability) but it's not the right (read: safest) wingloading for every, or even most, freshly licensed jumper(s).

It's really hard for most people to "grow into" something that they can't consistently land standing up. Many people who buy smaller gear thinking they'll "grow into" it soon find themselves selling it - whether due to injury, gear fear or just being tired of rolling around in the dirt. And most of those people don't replace it, either.

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It is also good forward planning to have a container that would accommodate a canopy one size smaller



All containers will accommodate a canopy one size smaller than the one they were built for. Some will safely accommodate two sizes smaller.

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If possible, I would buy new; I did when I was a newbie. If you plan ahead and choose a sensible size that would give you say a 1.15 wing load



That's not a sensible size. It's at least 15% smaller than what accepted experts (Brian Germain) recomend.

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and take a canopy course, you can grow into your rig and get a lot of use out of it.



You'll probably grow into it just fine. You can usually be back in the air within 6-12 months when you don't (mostly broken tibia/fibulas and femurs which have been too numerous to count; I only know a couple guys who broke their backs and just one that got paralyzed exeeding Brian Germain's Wingloading Never Exceed formula of 1.0 + .1 for each 100 jumps with adjustments down for small canopies, currency, altitude, etc).

A pound per square foot is not very exciting landing straight ahead in a wide open grassy field. The problem is that sooner or later you'll have some one "cut you off", not see an obstacle like a barbed wire fence until you're real low, have a bad spot, etc. and land some place else where you may find that it's at least a third bigger than you need to add an extra bend to your leg with an uneven landing area, 1500 jumps, and better than pro-rating accuracy skills (see attached; .75 pounds/square foot)

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I started jumping my first rig on my 35th jump. It is also good forward planning to have a container that would accommodate a canopy one size smaller (i.e. the Javelin that holds a 190 can also hold a 170).



Most containers with the closing loop mounted on the reserve container and not the bottom flap will accomodate two down sizes, but it doesn't matter.

Used mains and rigs depreciate about $1/jump each. If you're patient shopping you'll spend the same money regardless of how many rigs and mains you go through getting to the smallest size you'll want to jump. If you do a better job shopping and selling you may even make a small profit.

If you're one of the many people who break themselves and live in the United States, you'll be out thousands of dollars when you only have typical disability (paying 60% of wages with a 1 week exclusionary period) and health (deductable + only 80% coverage until you hit your co-insurance of a few thousand dollars) insurance. (the price tag doesn't include what you'll spend for a new harness if the paramedics have to cut you out).

If you live some place with socialized medicine it might not be that bad financially but you'll need new jumpsuits after you've grown too fat from being unable to exercise with nothing better to do than drink beer.

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Yes, agreed that 1.15 can provide more lively landings than needed and possibly outright unsafe for some people. Also, I live and nearly always jump at sea level, so I didn’t consider altitude – good note. I intended and left out the word “maximum” as my non-expert opinion believes this should be the most for a new jumper not the recommended. I agree that 1.0 would be far friendlier, but would also be outgrown sooner. This worked for me and I was extremely happy.

However, your rantings on health care?? In the UK, in addition to income tax we pay 11% National Insurance tax. If you’re piss poor you’ll be making out like a champ, however if you have a considerable income it’s the most expensive health insurance in the world. Neither system really works: US: best stuff, but too expensive, UK: lower cost but quality not worth having. We should all move to Switzerland – they’re sorted and they’ve got some good dropzones.
"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

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