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johan420

Overloading a 7-cell canopy

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What will exactly happen if you overload a canopy witch are designed for very low loading..ex a BASE canopy? this canopies are likely designed for 0,6-0,8..
Im up for buying a low volumpacket non vented BASE canopy for the sake of a low profile design rig..
Im posting this here because of the lack of rigging knowledge on the other side of the wall

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What will exactly happen if you overload a canopy witch are designed for very low loading..ex a BASE canopy? this canopies are likely designed for 0,6-0,8..
Im up for buying a low volumpacket non vented BASE canopy for the sake of a low profile design rig..
Im posting this here because of the lack of rigging knowledge on the other side of the wall



What does the manufacturer think? The canopy didn't materialize on their shelves after all. The designed and produced it.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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the manufactors will always set a recomanded wingload...just to be on the safe side on the road, but this wl could always be pushed...the manifactors will never tell how much it could be pushed..
Bu i have gone the other way before and underloaded canopies..with poor headingperformance as a results...it seems like a overloaded CP would turn the other direction..better heading performance..
Im just guessing here...heading performance is the most important thing here since i would use it in base..
Riggers are welcome to chime in here..

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I think I know what canopy you mean and I worked for those guys for many years.

Let's put it this way. In the early days of BASE, and even skydiving for that matter, it was sort of wing loading - schming loading. I skydived with squares for probably ten years before I even heard the phrase wing loading.

When I first started B.A.S.E. jumping we were all more concerned with the aspect ratio of a canopy. That's the cord measurement (leading edge to trailing edge) and span measurement (end cell to end cell.) The thought process being boxy aspect ratios were better than more rectangular aspect ratios for on-heading openings. And as long as we opened straight we could handle whatever the landing brought.

All the skydiving canopies we were using for early BASE were in the 220 to 240 size. And pretty much both lightweight and heavyweight jumpers used those two sizes. When BASE canopies first appeared in the early 1990s these were still pretty much the only sizes available.

It took us awhile to discover bigger was generally better in BASE and for basically two reasons. BASE landing areas aren't always flat and wide open like proper DZs. And since you only had one canopy the bigger it was the amount of damage or amount of malfunction (slider hang, line entanglement, or line over) it could sustain and still land you alive is higher.

On the other extreme is the issue you brought up. Too big a canopy is bad too. There where lots of small woman who had problems with big canopies in the early days of BASE. I've seen some that just rocked back and forth between a stall and dive all the way into the ground. The jumper just didn't weigh enough to get the canopy to drive forward and fly.

When "wing loading" became a buzz phrase in skydiving it quickly migrated over to BASE. And then the BASE manufacturers started to offer more sizes. We now had canopies, in general, from 205 to 265, and nowadays that range is even wider.

So to try and more answer your question, first off, with a higher wing loading and less hefty construction type BASE canopy the first question I'd want answered is, "Is it possible I can blow the canopy up?" Traditional BASE canopies were all on the over-built side and they could easily shed some of that extra re-enforcement. Does that mean you need to inspect it more closely as time goes by? I'd say no as you should be inspecting the hell out of the only canopy you have no matter how built like a tank it is. So that's a wash.

Also let's look at how often skydivers blow up their mains. It does happen on the DZ from time to time. But why? Usually it's a reefing system failure. Either the slider comes down prematurely, or didn't get un-stowed prior to packing or something like that. Also skydivers, because they pull high and have a reserve, tend to jump things until they break. We even see tandem canopies blowing up, but as tandem masters get less gear savvy, like the general jumper populace at large, some DZOs get away with getting every jump possible out their tandem mains. So basically they get jumped until they finally fail too.

You, as a B.A.S.E. jumper, knowing you are jumping your only canopy, your reserve actually, won't do any of that so that ones a wash too.

Now onto performance. It's simple. The more weight you put under a 7-cell canopy the faster and harder it will do everything. Full flight will be faster, turns will be quicker, toggle pressure higher, and stalls more abrupt. But it will handle turbulence better and penetrate into winds better. The danger there would be not keeping in mind while your canopy may handle squirrelly winds better, your body might not.

If you are taking about the same canopy I am, then I know for a certain fact, this company wouldn't market something new like this without considering every angle six ways from Sunday. Including the fact a lot of B.A.S.E. jumpers are boneheads and don't always think things through.

Personally I like a more responsive BASE canopy. At night, in the city, I want a canopy that goes where I point it and right now. I do however own something larger than that because I've been injured before and my legs are shot. So it's up to you to make a good decision as far as that goes . . .

I've seen video, and maybe you have too, of people jumping Stilettos at the Potato. Somewhere between that extreme and jumping a barge is the groove. And it's up to each of us to find our own groove . . .

NickD :)

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Unfortunately this was written to be the 3rd reply but I was called away. Here it is anyway in it's original forum with a few edits to correct some of grammatical errors. You get to read the rest of them because I'm too lazy to proofread
:|:|:|

Stock answers like ask the manufacturer are not only obvious but often do nothing to help answer a person's question. What do you think the manufacturer is going to tell average user about wing loading? Don't do it.... (Though most of us do it anyway)

Also, johan, some of the folks on the other side of the wall as you put it; actually have rigging experience to go along with the parachuting experience. Many skydiving riggers know very little about how to answer your question ... hence the stock "ask the manufacturer". Remember, you don't even have to be a skydiver to be a rigger. Not knocking riggers but ... if you don't know, that's ok. Just leave it alone.

What are you using if for? If it's for a tight landing area, it's going to take all your skill all the time. You will not have every bit of skill at your disposal at all times. Especially if you come out of line twists at 50 feet. That goes for small reserves as well. Landing a 109 Micro Raven is not much fun if you're not very current. It's very low profile though.

Remember too that spectra line is low volume but does not stretch. If you wish to lower the pack volume even more, then Spectra will help. It does, however, transfer opening shock directly from the canopy through the lines to your risers. Since they are connected to the harness, it then transfers it to the harness and you. Abrupt openings hurt and can also damage equipment... usually starting with lines becoming 2 pieces, or nifty holes or tears in the parachute. There is one canopy out that seems to have it pretty much figured out.

The Trango is the canopy designed for small pack volume and it works well. You've probably researched enough to know it doesn't seem to last as long as a standard B A S E canopy, but at reasonable wing loads and non-technical landing zones, it's great. It's actually fine for technical landings zones if the canopy is not overloaded.

What happens when over loading a canopy is basic. A dynamic stall is much easier to perform. In other words, if you're going long, sinking it in may be your only option. If the canopy is highly loaded, you'll crash by either stalling the canopy, or simply having to high a decent rate for your landing gear. Hopefully you just do a controlled crash minus the stalling part.

If you normally jump a standard ZP canopy loaded at 1.5 and find yourself under a reserve at the same wing load. You're in for a real treat. Try this ... do not do a canopy control check. Just point it to the landing zone of choice and wait till you're fairly close to the ground. Cram on the brakes at around 8-10 feet. What happens? The canopy stalls, as the jumper swings in front of the canopy. Then the jumper falls on their back. Ow... I've seen it many times.

Now do that same thing in a boulder field. Bigger ow...

My other suggestion to questions like --> what will happen to this b a s e canopy if I over load it ... is this.

Go fly a few non-ZP 7 cells and figure it out. Really! Go fly some and see what they do. If you’re into jumping off objects and landing in areas that most people consider impossible, then you need to know.

When I was all gung ho about jumping, my 220 became too hard to deal with so I upsized to a 240. The 220 was great until it required sinking it in sideways around light poles onto a staircase or onto small boulders on an uphill slope. The 240 gave me range that was a lot greater, plus it was easier to control. Sometimes you must fly straight down or even backward, or do a snap 180 as not to hit what you jumped off.

If you've plenty of room to land, it's less of an issue. But keep in mind that a malfunction can be a big issue on any canopy. The smaller the canopy, the more the canopy reacts to that malfunction. Having no choice to land the same malfunctioned canopy also becomes a much more daunting task.

Is that about as clear as chocolate milk? Yeah ... sorry about that but for the application you're suggesting, you simply have to go fly canopies and learn how to deal with higher performance and different control ranges.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Search all the threads slandering Micro Ravens.

They will tell about all the aches and pains you can accumulate while over-loading 7-cell canopies made of F-111 fabric.

Most of the people injured under Micro Ravens considerably exceeded the manufacturers' recommended wing-loading.

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I'll chime in.

I have a flik 266 for base (vented) and I have a flik 182 for wingsuit skydives, (non-vented but ZP HTS)...

I weigh 165lbs ish, sans gear. So I load my base canopy about .7 and my skydiving one at 1.1

Loading a canopy in the base environment above 1 to 1 in my humble opinion is not the wisest move.

The stall / sink of the canopy is night and day. Things I can do on my flik 266 I cannot do on my flik 182.

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable on anything smaller than a 220 if I was looking for a low pack volume base canopy.

The smaller canopy does open like a rocket though. ANd you can hook it...


_justin

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I'll chime in.

I have a flik 266 for base (vented) and I have a flik 182 for wingsuit skydives, (non-vented but ZP HTS)...

I weigh 165lbs ish, sans gear. So I load my base canopy about .7 and my skydiving one at 1.1

Loading a canopy in the base environment above 1 to 1 in my humble opinion is not the wisest move.

The stall / sink of the canopy is night and day. Things I can do on my flik 266 I cannot do on my flik 182.

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable on anything smaller than a 220 if I was looking for a low pack volume base canopy.

The smaller canopy does open like a rocket though. ANd you can hook it...

_justin



aside from the incredible 270deg hooks at 350ft - how would you rate full flight opening shock on the 182 with microline vs your 266 w/ dacron ?

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We share the same weight..i do jump a vented Troll245(260PIA spec), i know i could easily go for a 240 range(i used to jump that before)....i thinking about buying a Hybrid L/D and a Trango185(200PIA spec)-or 205(219PIA spec)...i probably go for a 205.....

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aside from the incredible 270deg hooks at 350ft - how would you rate full flight opening shock on the 182 with microline vs your 266 w/ dacron ?



The worst fast openings on my 266 with Dacron are like car wrecks... The fast opening on the 182 with spectra is like a plane crashing into a mountain. I scream in pain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvmlS0sDpFo

I will be suffering permanent damage if I keep up the mesh slider full flight openings. However, the altitude loss is negligible when so configured. So it has it's uses...... On the other hand, I had to stop wearing my camera helmet out of fear of a broken neck.

It's a lot of fun for a canopy, but truth be told I am finally looking for a sail slider since I have upped my pull altitude and turned on the cypres in that rig......

Btw, you can do a 270 hook sub 280' with it, but you have to dig out a bit so you don't skip off the tarmac.


Great canopy for reliable lower pulls and what skydivers would consider *real* tight landing areas.

Bad canopy for base jumpers where the landing area is really really tight, or base jumpers who fear a lineover or similar malfunction with the possibility of impact with solid ground.

I'll take the extra weight and chance of riding in lineover/mal on one of my 266's than the lighter weight and possibility of it on the 182.... Risk/reward I guess.

_justin

_justin

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