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thestalkmore

Flaking while Packing

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As far as tips go, I was taught what I believe to be a superior method to your normal nose shake. With the canopy over your shoulder, take the nose into the hand opposite from the shoulder that the lines are on (lines on left shoulder, nose in right hand). Then take the rear line groups below (towards the ground) in your left hand. Then while holding the nose and rear lines in your hands, vigorously spread your arms as far apart as they will go. With any luck, you will be limited by the chordwise length of the canopy. The idea hear is to straighten out the fabric and there for the lines. You should be able to look down into the canopy and see all of the line groups in place and together. If not, give it another swing/stretch. At this point, most of the flaking should be done, but I sill put the nose between my knees and check it (especially the C and D groups) for good measure. Good luck!



That's exactly what the normal nose shake should achieve. It's all about straightening out the fabric (I don't flake my canopy, I don't even look inside it, just shake it from the nose and it's good to go). If people you know are grabbing the nose and just jiggling it around a bit then they're only wasting time.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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If your canopy has packing tabs on it then when you lay it down to start grab all 9 tabs on the front left hand and back in Rt. hand lay it down like a flat pack. This will take all of 30 seconds. then go back to your rig and run the lines. When you get to the canopy everythings neat and in order your almost done already. This method works for me.
ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

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In addition to the prev posts to shaking(which GREATLY helps in my flaking) I look where the slider is quartered to assist with seperating the lines and getting down into the body of the chute to see where flaking needs to take place. It will only be a matter of time before you will begin to just "see" where the flaking occurs. And wow.. most folks (like myself!) have the issues with getting the darn thing into the D bag... not the flaking part.. so you're above the curve!!! good luck.. blue skies
If flying is piloting a plane.. then swimming is driving a boat. I know why birds sing.. I skydive.

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Hey everyone,

I have the most horrendous time flaking my canopy while doing pro packs, and it seems to be the only thing I really struggle with. Anyone have any tips on how to make that whole process easier? I can't seem to identify my line groups and stick them in the right folds.



You might try my version of a pro-pack. Make sure the lines are clean from risers to canopy, flake out the nose, put the brake lines on top, wrap the tail a bit, and shove that thing in the bag.

Beyond everything else, make sure the brake lines stay on top the stack after putting the mess on the ground.

Flaking the fabric between every line group is a waste of time, except for making you feel better.

Remember, they're all trash-packs when the come out of the bag.

;)
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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B|The neater it is the More it wants to stay in the bag!!!!! Keep the lines in order and it'll open.

And the neater it is, the harder a Sabre opens. My Sabre seems to function best with a loose wrinkly flaking best -- not too overly neat.

Some fast opening canopies seem to open better when not packed too neatly. Which is a shame, as I like to pack neat. No mals requiring cutaway yet. Hope I'm not jinxing myself. Knock on wood.

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Well Mark, are you here encouraging sloppy packing !!!!!??? I heard that one already and I don't quite agree. Sloppy packing for sure involve more friction then will damage your parachute faster. There are many factors contributing to the opening shock like:
1) position of the jumper at pull time, after pull resume your free fall position using a reverse arch to slow down
2) size, type of fabric and shape of the pilot chute
3) the type of canopy, type of fabric used, type of lines used (Dacron lines are more "elastic" than HMA)
4) the proper size of the rubber band, if too slack, double them
5) the length of the line stows
6) the way you pack like rolling inward and creasing the 4 cell noses each side or not on a 9 cells for Sabre
7) according Bill Booth one tuck tab of the riser covers releasing before the other one can generate a hard opening. The riser cover magnets are supposed to solve that. I have them and it works beautifully.
8) legs straps adjustment, too much slack and the opening might be harder
As you see there is many area to look at inorder to improve your opening shock. But always remember, softer means also a longer vertical distance. My Sabre 2-170 was opening within 340 feet average on 10 jumps. My Katana 170 now opens withing 600 feet (average on 10 jumps). No wonder my Katana opens so softly.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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Well Mark, are you here encouraging sloppy packing !!!!!??? I heard that one already and I don't quite agree. Sloppy packing for sure involve more friction then will damage your parachute faster. There are many factors contributing to the opening shock like:

Firstly, three important things, that suggests a misinterpretation of my post:

(1) Where did I use the word "sloppy"?
(2) Someone else told me I pack too slow and carefully. :)(3) My rigger recently complimented how excellent condition my 1993 Sabre 170 is in. It's one of the originals. (About 500 jumps now, and over 300 packjobs by me.)

Now, what I'm saying is that different parachutes respond best to different packing techniques. Sabre 1's (at least MY own) just open too fast if you pack them too absolutely neatly. Basically I should roll the nose carefully, rather than keep it flaked super-neat, and basically when sorting the line groups and flaking, it's more important that the line groups are neatly arranged at the tabs (this prevents excessive line friction, line overs, tension knots, and the like), than having all the fabric perfectly super-flatly Z-flaked back and forth. Just a slightly loose, crinkly or baggyish flake -- it's still neater than people who don't even bother flaking at all (some people just shake canopy and then cocooon -- I often spend 5 minutes flaking my canopy at least, before cocoon.) I'm just saying that there's such a thing as flaking way too neatly -- when it comes to certain canopies like this one. (I'm not talking about sloppiness). Also, I put MUCH more wear and tear on the canopy during cocooning (it's evidence by the wearing of the parachute's label, right where I hold the fabric while I cocoon, the label is where I put my knee to hold down S-folds)

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Now, what I'm saying is that different parachutes respond best to different packing techniques. Sabre 1's (at least MY own) just open too fast if you pack them too absolutely neatly.



I would say from a technical point of view that neat packing means consistent openings. Play with the nose, slider and how tight you roll the sausage to influence how fast it opens. I did some analysis of my last 50 terminal jumps. Sabre2 170 and opened on average 540'.

Go back 100 jumps and the openings were more like 350'. I didn't lose weight, I got neater and learned what to do with the packjob to make it open slower. When I'm tired I'll let the packing droid do it. He's just as neat as me but it sure opens "firmer".

-Michael

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Hey everyone,

I have the most horrendous time flaking my canopy while doing pro packs, and it seems to be the only thing I really struggle with. Anyone have any tips on how to make that whole process easier? I can't seem to identify my line groups and stick them in the right folds.



Buy a Pilot, my flaking is VERY easy ;)


I came in here to post that.

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You could also split the lines with your head before flaking and after sticking the tail between your legs.



What FLJB is describing is the two-shoulder method.
For the life of me, I cannot understand why youngsters are taught the one-shoulder method right off the bat. It's even simpler if you split the left-side line groups over the left shoulder (and right over right) immediately after you run up the lines.

The two-shoulder method opens everything up nicely and makes it much easier for new packers to SEE exactly what they are doing. And you spend less time looking for line groups. AND it minimizes confusion when first starting out packing.

I have no clue why people most often choose doing things the hard way.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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The two-shoulder method opens everything up nicely and makes it much easier for new packers to SEE exactly what they are doing. And you spend less time looking for line groups. AND it minimizes confusion when first starting out packing.


It does not matter. If someone does not know what to look for...
I agree dual shoulder could be more simple for learning.

After doing 100+ flat packs I was kindda lost in my first some pro-pack.

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The two-shoulder method opens everything up nicely and makes it much easier for new packers to SEE exactly what they are doing. And you spend less time looking for line groups. AND it minimizes confusion when first starting out packing.

I have no clue why people most often choose doing things the hard way.




Because for most of us who started packing via the one-shoulder method, the two-shoulder method is the hard way... :P

(When I was learning, I found things much easier to sort out with the lines on one shoulder and the slider touching the grommets than when I tried it all tangled up in the middle of things. I've packed that way since then, and taught a few people how to pack, and still consider the 2-shoulder method "the hard way.")

It's all relative. ;)
Signatures are the new black.

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Mark, it's super, you seem to have the right attitude about packing. That's why I put some exclamation and interrogation marks in my post <> I wasn't sure how to interpret your terms "loose" and "baggy".
Just a note, it was a recommendation of Performance designs to roll and crease inward the 4 cell noses each side on the Sabre 1. Therefore it's neat to do it that way. One thing one has to remember too, when doing the 3 folds for bagging the canopy, it's important to comb the lines (for 3-4 inches) near the attachment of the A lines toward the canopy to make sure the slider is still against its grommets. Any gap between the slider and its grommets can generate a hard opening.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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Go back 100 jumps and the openings were more like 350'. I didn't lose weight, I got neater and learned what to do with the packjob to make it open slower. When I'm tired I'll let the packing droid do it. He's just as neat as me but it sure opens "firmer".

Funny you say this -- When I first got this Sabre, it was hard to figure out how to make it open, and I was messier in other aspects than I am now. Nontheless, this topic is about flaking portion of the packjob. :)
Going offtopic from flaking, but still ontopic regarding packing:
Now my biggest problem is that my openings seem to be more offheading more often ever since the last reserve pack. I upgraded from a Raven Micro to a PD Reserve, less than a month ago. The packtray fit feels a little bit tighter now due to the change in reserve, and now I am yet again experimenting with trying to re-improve the on-headingness, including lengthening/shortening the line stows or packing wider/flatter, or rolling the nose more symmetrically to improve open heading. Tips are appreciated.

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Since the Sabre is a 9 cells, your best chance to have on heading openings is to resume your box position after you pull and look at the horizon. But first make sure to have the 3 fold canopy well symetrical at the bagging and leave between 18-24 inches of suspension lines free.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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What did the trick for me was when a rigger hung my student canopy up and I was able to take some time to look at the design of the canopy. I was able to understand how packing works and where the line groups actually were. After that it was just counting and moving my hands down the canopy following a seam.Smile



Totally agree! I did this with the last two people that were confused on packing and it seemed to help a lot! That and gave them some new knowledge and a reason to owe beer ;)
-Patrick

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Assumption:
Tighter fit meaning a reserve canopy with a larger pack volume.

Maybe you are hooking your excess suspension lines in the top of the main tray around the bottom edges of the reserve tray. This could cause the lines to be snagged on deployment and cause the bag to rotate or spin abnormally at opening.

With the tighter fit on the reserve maybe those reserve tray corners are mre pronounced and more apt to sang suspension lines.

If that is the case, then I would say route your excess suspension lines around the outside edges of the main tray all the way to the bottom of the tray thus minimizing the potential for snagging on the reserve tray corners.

But what do I know...I've rarely had the off-heading problem unless it was body position at opening.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Your assumption is correct. Though I'm surprised that a PD143R packs slightly larger than a Raven Micro 150. However, it does pack flatter (i.e. my rig seems ever slightly thinner at the top).

It may also be how my primary jumps have changed recently too: Most of my openings are right at the end of a track away from a bigway (All my recent jumps were 6-ways through 102-ways), some with 2500 foot pulls. I do flare aggressively at the end of a track while waving right before the pull, and continue my flare boxman position after I pull. It seems to make me open softer, since the body flare right after a high speed track gives me a slight fallrate reduction. But these are precisely the times I don't want offheading openings! Fortunately, I get good distance and airspace after the vast majority of my tracks.

(To OP, apologies for a minor thread hijack)

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SNAP FLAKE!!! Grab those cells, the nose that is, all 7 or 9 of em', push it through the middle of the cannopy, past the slider a little bit, and jerk and snap is back past your side, and then back around, inbetween you legs it goes. That really gets the canopy all symmetrical.

Wade




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For the benefit of the readers could you explain how did you come up with those figures ? Thanks



I used an altitrack and downloaded all my jumps. Then I wrote a perl script to process them. I figured out the speed and calculated the delta altitude between the first significant drop in altitude and reaching a set value (I think it was about the equivalent of 10fps). Maybe if I get extremely bored some day I'll write it into a windows app and give it out to anyone who is interested.

-Michael

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I have the most horrendous time flaking my canopy while doing pro packs, and it seems to be the only thing I really struggle with. Anyone have any tips on how to make that whole process easier? I can't seem to identify my line groups and stick them in the right folds.



If you have 40 minutes to spare this is a great video.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=6886

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