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Xempt17

Safety Devices. Which work the best.

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My goal is to skydive safely as possible, I know that most of the time safety relies on the person behind the canopy not the latest gear...but I do know that having these devices can save you're life in an ugly situation where normal hands couldn't act as quickly.

I'm talking about AAD's and RSL's here, which are more effective. Whats the difference between them and how do they make a difference? In what types of situations would each benefit, lastly can I use both in conjunction to amplify the safety factor or would this just complicate the rig. Im a student and I think that knowing the difference between the two and how I could use these devices in my rig might benefit me someday.

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If you are at 750 feet with nothing out, an AAD could be your only chance of survival, and if you are at 750 feet with a manfunctioning canopy (main) an RSL (or a SkyHook) could be your only chance. Talk to your instructors. This is something that should be done in a conversation with them rather than on a bulletin board.

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Hi, back from the Summerfest 2008. For AAD, they are all OK but go for the most advanced and user friendly, ie. the Vigil II. For the RSL go for the most tested, ie. the Skyhook. Get a video from UPT showing actual use of the Skyhook and you should be convinced. A friend of mine got two malfunctions (very bad line twists) and in both case when he came to pull the silver handle, the reserve was already fully deployed.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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Hi!

AADs and RSLs work in different situations:

RSLs makes your cutaway main help open your reserve either directly, by acting as a PC (Skyhook), or indirectly, by pulling the pin to your reserve container (Other RSLs). It's the drag in the main canopy that makes the RSL work, so the RSL won't do anything if you have a total mal or a PCIT.

An AAD cuts the loop that keeps your reserve container closed if you're going faster than a speed set by the manufacturer below a certain altitude, typically 750 ft.

So the RSL helps you to get your reserve out faster when you cutaway a main canopy, and the AAD helps if you are still in freefall very low, for some reason (unconciousness, lack of altitude awareness etc).

AADs can also help when you cutaway your main, but you have to reach their activation speed for them to work and won't cause an immediate reserve deployment like an RSL.

None of these devices, regardless of manufacturer or date are guaranteed to work every time, and can even cause some problems of their own: pulling your main at the same time as your AAD activates your reserve can cause a two out situation or even a main reserve entanglement. You should not rely on them and always practice EPs pulling all of your handles.

RSLs are simple devices, and I don't think they complicate the rig, it should be properly set up by the rigger assembling the system, and you should know which ring the RSL hook goes on, but that's pretty much all.

AADs today are good quality products, and a risk of it firing when it's not supposed to is very small. They often require being sent back to the factory for a check every 4 years, and are expensive, and you have to pay attention to the display when you turn them on to see if there are anything unusual, in which case the rig should not be jumped. AADs have substantially reduced the "nothing out" fatalities.

Many people, in fact most people I know, have both on their rigs.

I hope this was of any help.

I think UTP still has some nice skyhook videos on their website, check them out:

http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/

Or the Cypres saves list:

http://www.cypres.cc/Sites/englisch/Frameset_engl_skydiving.htm



:)

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

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Hi, back from the Summerfest 2008. For AAD, they are all OK but go for the most advanced and user friendly, ie. the Vigil II.


This is opinion, not fact, and should be stated as such. I hold a different opinion.

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For the RSL go for the most tested, ie. the Skyhook.


I'd debate this as fact also. When Bill introduced the Skyhook at the PIA symposium (2003 IIRC) he said it was ready for tandems but not for personal rigs yet. Probably summer. They hadn't tested it with jumper spinning on their back. I got back home and a customer had been called and offered a skyhook on a rig being built. I told him he should decide if he wanted to be a test jumper.

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A friend of mine got two malfunctions (very bad line twists) and in both case when he came to pull the silver handle, the reserve was already fully deployed.


Pretty much the effect of any RSL. Skyhook, as well as soon to be released alternative MARD's (main assisted reserve deployment) may be of benefit in certain situations but add complexity. Until Bill had a marketing advantage he was anti RSL. I used to give his white paper to new customers as the 'anti' side of the RSL argument.


I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Hi, back from the Summerfest 2008. For AAD, they are all OK but go for the most advanced and user friendly, ie. the Vigil II.


This is opinion, not fact, and should be stated as such. I hold a different opinion.


I like the cypres, it's tried and tested. I know about several incidents where the cypres was involved, some of them causing serious injury, but all of them happened because the cypres worked as it should.

If you want to know more about RSLs, read this excellent article:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=18

:)
Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

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A friend of mine got two malfunctions (very bad line twists) and in both case when he came to pull the silver handle, the reserve was already fully deployed.


Pretty much the effect of any RSL. Skyhook, as well as soon to be released alternative MARD's (main assisted reserve deployment) may be of benefit in certain situations but add complexity. Until Bill had a marketing advantage he was anti RSL. I used to give his white paper to new customers as the 'anti' side of the RSL argument.



I datalogged each of my 2 cutaways. One on student gear took 330' to open because of a brake fire/tension knot. The second took 300' to open and it was because of a lineover. Any MARD system whether a skyhook or a DRX or whatever other system is out there is likely to deploy the reserve faster. In fact I believe UPT said about 75'. I'll take the extra 225' of oh shit out of the equation if I can.

As for Booth changing his mind, I don't speak for the guy and I've never met him however I do think opinions can become outdated just like gear designs. I've certainly said some things in my industry were a crappy idea until one day they were refined to the point that they worked very well.

Last time I checked into the DRX there wasn't even mention of it on their website so what other well tested MARD system can you recommend that is availble?

-Michael

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Uhh, don't need to. Been making those arguements for 25 years.



Not you, the OP;)

:)
He will no doubt hear a lot of myths when he asks around at his DZ.
Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

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In fact I believe UPT said about 75'. I'll take the extra 225' of oh shit out of the equation if I can.



Now your relying on marketing again.;)


My point is that I don't believe the Skyhook was fully tested before it went on the market. And modifications were made post marketing.

At the same time Booth said it wasn't ready for sport rigs it was being put on the first customer rigs. At the same public presentation he said they hadn't been able to test it on a jumper spinning on their back because induced spins are forward. Half the room said put the main on backwards.;)

Bill has said that nothing can be fully tested before it's on the market. Throw out PC's are the prime example. From straight pins to belly bands to elastic loops and on and on it went through dozens of improvements until it stopped killing people. My home DZ wouldn't even allow them for longer than most.

It somewhat amazing the limited number of tests required for TSO approval. Not that companies don't do more in development. But the number of actual test drops/jumps surprised me as limited.

So I suggested on of my customers might not to have one of the first skyhooks and be a test jumper. It may be the same with other MARD's but I may have more confidence in their testing when they come on the market. Part of that will be building on what UPT has done.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Deonshook

Yes Safety devices are mostly needed in an Awkward or ugly situation, and these situations are not predicted, So, we should avoid the risk and keep these devices with us. Get some of the safety devices [url=http://www.hotelsafes.ca/]here[/url].



You kind of snuck in an unrelated advertisement there, didn't you?

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Boogers

***Yes Safety devices are mostly needed in an Awkward or ugly situation, and these situations are not predicted, So, we should avoid the risk and keep these devices with us. Get some of the safety devices [url=http://www.hotelsafes.ca/]here[/url].



You kind of snuck in an unrelated advertisement there, didn't you?

You mean you don't jump with at least one Hotel safe? :o

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Divalent

******Yes Safety devices are mostly needed in an Awkward or ugly situation, and these situations are not predicted, So, we should avoid the risk and keep these devices with us. Get some of the safety devices [url=http://www.hotelsafes.ca/]here[/url].



You kind of snuck in an unrelated advertisement there, didn't you?

You mean you don't jump with at least one Hotel safe? :o

I've jumped with a few guys who probably fall as fast as a hotel safe, but I wouldn't consider that a safety device. :D

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