Wave off once? twice? and look Up? down? both?

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

Everyone tracks for awhile and what next? I know what comes next. I know people are pulling.

When?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[chuckakers 369]

I don't think the specific technique is all that important, as long as you get the job done. You should be looking and adjusting for traffic while tracking (that assumes you can track straight while doing so). You can clear your air while waving off prior to throwing out.

And something that is often forgotten - you should continue to scan for traffic during deployment. Get used to monitoring your deployment while checking to see what you'll be dealing with after your canopy starts flying. This can and has saved many canopy collisions.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[mdrejhon 8]

I understand what you're saying -- I spend only half a second waving off when I'm already low... But I think occasionally it comes handy to see others waveoff. Sometimes when I see a neighbour is doing that while I'm looking around while tracking, that's a signal for me to wave off right away and pull right away if my airspace is now already clear. No need to track unnecessarily as the last guy tracking...

[DanG 1]

Quote

I'm preparing to get flamed here. But as I've gained experience over the years I have failed to see the importance of a wave-off. Case being, I'm in a formation, we get to breakoff altitude and turn to track. Everyone tracks for awhile and what next? I know what comes next. I know people are pulling. Frankly, why do they need to tell me they're pulling? What am I doing flying over them at pull time? I have seen too many people track a ridiculously short distances. Then spend two seconds waving off! I've always felt that time could've been better used tracking.

Man, I'm glad you had the balls to say it. I don't wave unless I'm on something larger than about a six way. In other words, I only wave if I can't actually account for where everyone else is during the track itself.

If I've lost track of someone during the dive, I wave vigorously even after clearing my airspace above. If I know where everyone else is, I don't bother.

I know I'm a bad boy, but it's the truth.

- Dan G

[Pulse 0]

Quote

Quote

Everyone tracks for awhile and what next? I know what comes next. I know people are pulling.

When?

I'm not sure I understand your question. But at the end of the freefall?

Every skydive goes as such: Climbout---->Exit---->Freefall stuff---->Breakoff---->PULL. I WILL waveoff if I am pulling for some reason anywhere between the exit and 'normal' pull areas. But my point is not to be in that position. I've watched plenty of people pull and the waveoff really doesn't offer any extra time. Unless they're waving off for a very long time. To which I say, spend the time tracking. Then again, I've had some instances of opening canopies going by me and that's the first I saw of them. I couldn't tell you if they waved off or not.

- shrug -

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[LloydDobbler 2]

Quote

My question is this. When you look over your back before pulling, and someone IS there. What do YOU do? What if you're at minimums?

THIS to me is the real question, re: the "barrel-roll-to-see-if-someone's-above-you" mentality. So you're already at deployment altitude, you see someone above you - what do you do?

Say you veer to the right...what happens if they veer to the right? Should you do another barrel roll to double-check again?

Or should you go ahead and flare out and wait a second? Again, what are they (& the other people on the dive) doing? How do you know?

No matter what your course of action, you're really powerless in this situation, because that big hunk of granite is coming up faster for you than it is the other guy.

If you don't have a planned procedure for when you see someone above you, you can spend the rest of your life trying to decide what to do. And as far as I can tell, there are just too many different scenarios to keep track of to be sure that your standard procedure will work.

No matter what you do, you'll be relying on the person above to see you. Unless you hit the ground or have a Cypres fire first.

Signatures are the new black.

[Broke 0]

Well what happens if you wind up tracking tword the group that got out of the plane after you.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[Pulse 0]

Quote

Well what happens if you wind up tracking tword the group that got out of the plane after you.

This, in my opinion, should have been taken care of by the group leaving behind you. In the case that groups do track into each others air, I don't think a waveoff really makes the difference.

I'll go back to my original point. For example: Your group follows out a group closer than it should have. While you are tracking away you see another jumper from the group before you tracking back your direction. You can count on them pulling at ANY time. So what good is the waveoff? You're not going to stay above them until you see a waveoff. This is if you see them. If you DON'T see them a waveoff will not be of any good.

You will see them or not...waveoff or no waveoff. In this case, I would keep tracking but keep looking for other traffic!

We should strive to take care of all we can when it comes to safety. But we need to also be realistic. We can't cover EVERYTHING. In this scenario you're going to have to TRUST that the group getting out after you is taking proper separation.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Everyone tracks for awhile and what next? I know what comes next. I know people are pulling.

When?

I'm not sure I understand your question. But at the end of the freefall?

Yes, but how long does a n00b like me track? 5 secs? 10?
And while YOU might see me and are able to watch me pull, the other newbie on our threeway and I may not have seen each other.
A vigorous wave-off in the corner of my left eye may alert me to the proximity of the other jumper.

Waving off does/should not take 1000 feet and it is an easy thing to add to your pull sequence which may help your fellow jumpers. So why not do it?
Additionally, I stop what little forward speed my track generates by waving off.
"-shrug- " right back at ya, mate

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Quote

However, some of the other skydivers on these jumps have expressed concern because they can't see me easily. Should I try to track more at their level, or not worry about it? I guess they might feel nervous because they are putting more trust in me if I am above but what do you think?

Tell them to use you as a reference to practice their tracking skills

No seriously, I would not try to dive down and sacrifice horizontal separation just on order to stay on level with everybody else. The principle I learned from Hook'n'swoop and other very good trackers is never think you are good at it and never get sloppy. Try to get flatter, I am sure there are big people who can easily outtrack you. Try to be as good as them, don try to stay on level with those who think that sloppy delta is good enough

People that can't flat-track are complaining to YOU?


Take Mad47's advice and try to train them to track flatter...NOT the other way around!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Pulse 0]

Quote

Yes, but how long does a n00b like me track? 5 secs? 10?

I don't know, how long do you track? In recent years many 'up-jumpers' have seemd to raise their opening altitudes to that of the noobs. What is limiting your tracking time?

Quote

And while YOU might see me and are able to watch me pull, the other newbie on our threeway and I may not have seen each other.

Where are you losing track of people on the three-way? What were you looking at?

If you lost track of the jumper, or are not able to get out of a 'dangerous' position from them for the five seconds of tracking. Are you going to be able to avoid them in the next second between waveoff and dump? If you aren't in an area where the jumper is simply close, but not a threat. Is the waveoff a big deal? The jumper could be right next to you, but if you're not in their airspace above them, they're not an issue.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[Baksteen 84]

I haven't done much RW as of yet, so currently I like to break off at 4500.
My preferred opening altitude is 3000 ft, minimum (as per the regulations) 2500.

Quote

Where are you losing track of people on the three-way? What were you looking at?

two hundred jumps is not a lot. Sixty is even fewer. Students and up jumpers really don't have the same.. "3d overview" that experienced jumpers have (can't think of the appropriate word). Where did I lose sight of them? Perhaps when the beginning of my track wobbled, or when they lost altitude awareness and were surprised by their audible going off. Shit simply does happen, more so for rookies.

Quote

Are you going to be able to avoid them in the next second between waveoff and dump?

Perhaps, perhaps not. But like I said, the movement might alert me to their presence. It's not about the timespan the waveoff lasts, but my desperate attempt at a sideslide to avoid the other guy, or immediately pulling as I see them waveoff directly below me and their pilot leaving just might mean that at least one of us is entering shit creek with a wooden spoon if not a paddle.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Pulse 0]

Quote

...the movement might alert me to their presence. It's not about the timespan the waveoff lasts, but my desperate attempt at a sideslide to avoid the other guy, or immediately pulling as I see them waveoff directly below me and their pilot leaving just might mean that at least one of us is entering shit creek with a wooden spoon if not a paddle.

I guess my point is that if you weren't able to stay out of their way for five seconds. How will you get out of there within one second? Aside from that, pulling as soon as you see they guy below you waveoff isn't acceptable. What if you have a slower opening? What if you have a mal? If you're arguing the validity of waveoffs, what about the guy above you?

Really, I don't mean to sound like an a**hole. But my point remains that it's very hard to cover all bases. A jumper stopping and reaching back to pull is really just as much movement as a waveoff. If you're paying attention, there really is a lot of time.

I'm reminded of this because I was shooting video at a boogie last year where some camera guys were refusing to jump with a particular tandem-master. Mainly because "...he pulled without warning." Without warning? I've shot numerous tandems that have had premature deployments and even those were not without warning.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

I guess my point is that if you weren't able to stay out of their way for five seconds. How will you get out of there within one second?

Got it now, thanks

Quote

Aside from that, pulling as soon as you see they guy below you waveoff isn't acceptable. What if you have a slower opening? What if you have a mal?

I actually found myself in a situation like that earlier this year. The questions you ask me are the same ones me and the low guy asked our instructor.

Quote

If you're arguing the validity of waveoffs, what about the guy above you?

Really, I don't mean to sound like an a**hole. But my point remains that it's very hard to cover all bases. A jumper stopping and reaching back to pull is really just as much movement as a waveoff. If you're paying attention, there really is a lot of time.

Point taken. And you don't sound like one.Our opinions differ, and that's cool as long as we both take the safety precautions (be that AAD, FMD or wave off) dictated by the DZs we jump at, or exceed those standards.
In skydiving one can never be safe, merely "less at risk".

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[popsjumper 2]

You're doing good, Dennis.
Keep waving off. Don't let anyone talk you out of it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mdrejhon 8]

There's occasionally times I'm tracking in a tight wave with a few people and I'm flying in the middle between two neighbours that's fanning out, I do see one of them waveoff 100-200 feet to the left or right of me (and often slightly below), I might track a second or two longer to more clear airspace so that I am more likely to open at a different altitude and/or more horizontal distance between us -- just in case we both an off-heading opening and we fly directly to each other. I've done an extended track once as a result of seeing a waveoff. (True, deployments can vary, even from jump to jump -- but more horizontal separation is always helpful, especially if I've still got altitude to track that little extra distance)

Alternatively, I might change my heading slightly away from them (airspace permitting, and no other neighbours in the way) right before I begin my opening sequence, depending on whether I've got time before my designated deployment altitude.

[Pulse 0]

Quote

You're doing good, Dennis.
Keep waving off. Don't let anyone talk you out of it.

I wouldn't say I'm trying to talk anyone out of anything. My point is that flailing arms the instant before pilot chutes fly has limited use. It's akin to the pilot who yells, "CLEAR!" while turning the key. In a way just telling whoever is in the way of the prop they're going to die. A more prudent approach would be to CLEAR, wait a moment for reaction, then continue if no one has made their presence known.

Likewise, it would work better if the skydiver waved off, waited two seconds, then pulled. But that's asking a lot on the bottom end of the skydive. In the end the burden doesn't lie on the person waving off. It lies on the person above who has to get out of the way. So, if you are this person, why not take the fact that they are tracking as the waveoff? I dont' think it is that unreasonable to think - That person is tracking...therefore they are probably going to pull at ANY MOMENT!

Waveoff, scream, fondle, whatever you want to do before pulling. My point is, if you are that person above, don't look for a waveoff. Therefore, negating the waveoff.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[denete 2]

Quote

It lies on the person above who has to get out of the way. So, if you are this person, why not take the fact that they are tracking as the waveoff? I dont' think it is that unreasonable to think - That person is tracking...therefore they are probably going to pull at ANY MOMENT!

You assume that they were seen during the track.

It isn't the person that you see who will kill you, it is the person that you don't see. The wave off helps you see the jumper before they deploy if you didn't already see them.

Of course, If you already saw them...what the hell are you doing above them?!
$.03 (inflation)

- David

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[Pulse 0]

Quote

It isn't the person that you see who will kill you, it is the person that you don't see. The wave off helps you see the jumper before they deploy if you didn't already see them.

Of course, If you already saw them...what the hell are you doing above them?!

You're last point is what I was getting at. And even if the wave off helps the person above see them is there really enough time to take action?

Honestly, if you're stopping what you're doing in order to take NEW actions. No, there's not enough time. But if you simply keep doing what you're doing. And you should be...TRACKING. That's the quickest way out of there. Even if you're over someone's back during your entire track. They stop to pull, you keep tracking, you're clear. Wave off or not.

I really don't care what someone does. I know I'm not looking for waveoff's. But I have heard a few people on occasion say, "But I waved off." After they've had a 'close call' with someone. Sure, it might make you feel safe. But as I mentioned before, I've seen people put more into their vigorous waveoff than into their track. But in 17 years of big-ways, freefly dives, 'zoo' dives, and a lot of camera-flying. I have yet to hear anyone tell me, "It's a good thing they waved off. Otherwise I would've hit them!" And frankly, I don't see a lot of waveoffs out there.

In the end...do what you feel makes ya safe!

My job is done here.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

$.03 (inflation)

You crack me up.


Pulse has a very good point about the importance of tracking. We ALL should work on improving our tracking skills. Being the low man on tracking is a perfect indication that you need improvement.

Seeing a wave-off gives one a couple of good seconds to decide how to respond before the canopy comes out.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239