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bigbearfng

Wave off once? twice? and look Up? down? both?

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I've seen/heard a few different things about wave off time-even a barrel roll to check above!
But I'd like to get an idea of common/safe practice regarding wave off time.
Best to look up and down? Wave off twice?
Just seems that to really do all, I'd need to start wave off at least 500ft above actual pull altitude....
And do ya'll change technique depending on how big a way?
Thanks for all input, I'm still in "sponge mode", trying to soak up everything that I can learn!

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>Best to look up and down? Wave off twice?

Depends on circumstances. Best situation is to turn and track while keeping track of all the people around you. Track flatter than anyone else; this will put you above them where you can see them. When you wave off do it rapidly twice, looking to both sides/above each time. Then pull.

In the real world, often you have to trade off tracking vs waving off. You have to do at least one waveoff - on a low breakoff or on a big way, all the other time may be best utilized by tracking. You can look above you while tracking pretty easily, so you can shave some time off that way.

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I'm sure glad I looked down when I waved off a few months ago...someone had tracked UNDER me! I had a moment of 'oh shit' and turned, tracked as fast as I could. Saw his stuff coming out of the bag and thought I was in for a canopy ride I didn't plan on!! I am now even more observant about my proximity to others. I also privately visited with the fellow about it. He was not aware he had done that, so we both learned a lesson. No harm, no foul. No boo boos. :)
*****************
Attitude is everything!

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what billvon said.

But I wave off on every jump -- even solos where I'm the only one who exited. It's just habit. It only takes one time seeing a guy below you dump without a waveoff (surprising to see a rig open with no clear warning! luckily this guy was far below me and I could track over him), to realize how important it is. It keeps you safe, and all the people in the air with you safe.

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Freefall drift, too. Even if you are a solo it can happen where drift will place you over or under a group that has no idea you're there.

It happens.[:/]

I usually make one big wave off and deploy. I've got a nice flat track so I'm usually only looking out for people who track under me.

Ken
"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

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I am very light and fall slow (150lbs, 6'2"). When it comes to breakoff time, my track is usually flatter than other peoples and I can see everybody below me. This way I can make sure that I have enough seperation from everyone just by looking down and behind.

However, some of the other skydivers on these jumps have expressed concern because they can't see me easily. Should I try to track more at their level, or not worry about it? I guess they might feel nervous because they are putting more trust in me if I am above but what do you think?
Flying Hellfish #470

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I usually do a barrel roll to check the airspace above, one wave, and pull. Same routine, every time. Some people do it differently, but the only thing that matters is what you feel comfortable doing at your pull time.

The safest thing to do is to plan the skydive around your routine. If you know that your pull routine will take 500 feet before you pull, plan the breakoff 500 feet higher. Plan the skydive around your routine, not the other way around. Pull time is the most important part of the jump, so don't cut corners.

Matt
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I've seen/heard a few different things about wave off time-even a barrel roll to check above!
***
It's very good to be in "sponge mode" as you say, but at 28 jumps, stick to 2 ways or 4 ways with more experienced jumps if you can. Try to make sure your all falling relative to eachother on the same level through out the skydive, and plan to break off high so you can good seperation. As you turn 180 degrees to track, try to keep everybody in sight as to the level and direction of their track. ALWAYS look whats under you (the jumpers out just before you) and glance up to the right and left as your doing your 3 BIG wave offs. This may even take up more than 500 ft as you said your giving yourself?
You'll learn to do the barrel roll another time, when you've had more experience!;)
Go have fun doing 2, 3 and 4 ways!
When you are great at those, go bigger!

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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I think it is very common to get into situation like that as your tracking skills progress and you appear to be higher than others few second after relatively big group breaks off. It is fine as long as you are aware of what’s going on and don’t have to explain why you tracked over someone’s head.

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Should I try to track more at their level, or not worry about it? I guess they might feel nervous because they are putting more trust in me if I am above but what do you think?



Tell them to use you as a reference to practice their tracking skills;););)

No seriously, I would not try to dive down and sacrifice horizontal separation just on order to stay on level with everybody else. The principle I learned from Hook'n'swoop and other very good trackers is never think you are good at it and never get sloppy. Try to get flatter, I am sure there are big people who can easily outtrack you. Try to be as good as them, don try to stay on level with those who think that sloppy delta is good enough ;)

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Best to look up and down? Wave off twice?
Just seems that to really do all, I'd need to start wave off at least 500ft above actual pull altitude...



Don't wait until pull time to check around you.

You should be doing that the entire time you are tracking; below, left, right, and over both shoulders. That gives you an idea of who is where. If one of those sectors is empty, then you don't need to check it as often thereafter. If one sector is crowded, then you want to scan it more often.

If everyone tracks properly, they should all be out of your way. Just keep swiveling your head to keep track of everyone else's progress who is near you. That way you can veer off a bit if someone is not paying attention and is too close to you.

If you keep up with everything during your track, then you know who the closest person is at pull time, and while your canopy is deploying, you can keep an eye on them to make sure their canopy doesn't open off-heading and start coming at you.

I see too many people so intent on their track, that they lock their heads on their shoulders, and don't look around. That's a bad idea.

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The only times I've been uncomfortably close to another skydiver at pull time were two occasions when someone had gone low and not maintained proximity with the group, and I happened to track in their direction without knowing they were there.

Not staying with your group is a very dangerous practice, because the others in the group have no idea where the guy has gone (in a biggish formation they may not even know that anyone has gone), so even a well executed breakoff can lead to someone going over the top of the "missing" person.

If you go low or otherwise can't get to your group, you should keep in proximity as best you can and still follow the breakoff plan.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I just wanted to let this thread re-surface and see if there are any differing opinions now in 2008.

One thing that I've noticed is that a lot of students do a sort of windshield-wiper from the elbows kind of lazy wave-off (like treading water or something). Personally, I look like an albatross trying to take off (like horizontal jumping jacks).
SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

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Wouldn't doing a barrel roll be redundant? A wave tells someone above you "I'm about to deploy, don't be in my way". What if you discover someone above you by doing a roll? Are you going to wave EXTRA hard to alert them? It seems like it only wastes time, and that it's better to spend that time tracking.

If everybody makes sure nobody is below them (which is easy to do), then that's the best situation. Don't make me waste my time being responsible for you.

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What if you discover someone above you by doing a roll? Are you going to wave EXTRA hard to alert them?



No but it does stop you dumping in their face which is far from redundant.

Personally thats when pull low for safety comes into mind. Just hope it isnt some old bastard behind you who likes to pull at 2k and lower. :D
1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

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As an up-and-coming bigway jumper now regularly doing 30-ways and bigger...

I just waveoff once, because I'm often at the end of a track to a 2500 foot pull. I look around while I am tracking, below, above, and to sides. Once clear, sometimes I pull in a track, essentially doing a real quick and broad waveoff while beginning to bend my legs into the flare position, pull the hackey, then immediately aggressively flare my track after I've pulled -- takes one second for me to be stood up by the opening sequence. (The opening isn't bad when done well -- my boxman flare is sufficient to slow me down in a hurry, turning some forward motion into lift for slower fallrate). Of course, I do this while continuing to look around, as I was during my track. On some jumps when I've tracked a bit longer to gain a bit more airspace, and I know I'm clear, I'm now at an altitude where there really ISN'T time for me to waveoff twice, sometimes. (And I'm not even the lowest guy in the formation on 98% of the jumps, and yes, someone else has a cypres fire occasionally occurs at the bigway events I go to. Twice this year so far.) Bigway outers can sometimes go pretty low, especially during training camps where some people are still learning the ropes of bigways. So the tracking sequence needs to be streamlined.

Build your awareness during the track, learn to look around without sacrificing your track, so you've spent tons of time looking around before you've pulled. In bigways, follow your tracking leader for a short while and fan out. (Or what the organizer mandates.)

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Wouldn't doing a barrel roll be redundant? A wave tells someone above you "I'm about to deploy, don't be in my way". What if you discover someone above you by doing a roll? Are you going to wave EXTRA hard to alert them? It seems like it only wastes time, and that it's better to spend that time tracking.

If everybody makes sure nobody is below them (which is easy to do), then that's the best situation. Don't make me waste my time being responsible for you.



There's nothing in the SIM about barrel rolls being recommended.

I think barrel rolls during a track for separation are a BAD idea.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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If everybody makes sure nobody is below them (which is easy to do)....



On the face of it, that would seem so. In reality, the guy below you could, and often does, get lost in the ground clutter. I like to think that those close calls happen because of the low guy was hidden in ground clutter as opposed to the upper guy having his head in his ass and not looking.

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Don't make me waste my time being responsible for you.



I certainly do my best. I also do my best to watch out for everybody. We're all in this together.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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One thing that I've noticed is that a lot of students do a sort of windshield-wiper from the elbows kind of lazy wave-off (like treading water or something). Personally, I look like an albatross trying to take off (like horizontal jumping jacks).



David, yes, we teach students to wave off like that for a reason - stability. You did it during your student days. It helped keep you stable at pull time.

You've got your balance and ability to maintain stability while doing all sorts of things with your arms. Students don't have that capability...yet.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I'm preparing to get flamed here. But as I've gained experience over the years I have failed to see the importance of a wave-off. Case being, I'm in a formation, we get to breakoff altitude and turn to track. Everyone tracks for awhile and what next? I know what comes next. I know people are pulling. Frankly, why do they need to tell me they're pulling? What am I doing flying over them at pull time? I have seen too many people track a ridiculously short distances. Then spend two seconds waving off! I've always felt that time could've been better used tracking.

I will do a half-roll periodically, especially on freefly dives. But I've always thought it was a good idea to start my track on my back while freeflying.

My question is this. When you look over your back before pulling, and someone IS there. What do YOU do? What if you're at minimums?
"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

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I don't like to think that the guy above have seen me, and hope he's going to track away in time.
It is a nigtmare if it happens so low like you said. I suppose I'll track out of the situation and go reserve if necessary. I avoid that situation and start getting ready at 5000. Back track is great but one needs to pracise a lot before you can actually use it for deployment. Barrel roll is a good start I reckon.

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