S-turns on final

[JohnMitchell 14]

catfishhunter

You said landing pattern so NO they are not ok but if you set yourself up to run into an airplane or building

If you're in imminent danger of hitting an obstacle or building, you're probably not in the traffic pattern for most landing areas, so that may be a small comfort.

I have seen people fly THROUGH the landing pattern on their way to land in a different area. Those are some of the scariest people ever, because there is NO predicting just what in the hell they intend.

[Baksteen 84]

I'm apparently getting lost in translation somewhere. KimEmerson defines S-turns as 180's - I agree there's no place or that kind of turn in any pattern.

We teach:
"Pull down your toggle until you change heading and go back to full drive. Repeat if necessary in the other direction and then turn back into the wind."

We call this shashaying in Dutch. But I thought the English wording for this was "making S-turns".

Mea culpa

kimemerson

I teach braked approaches to avoid landing long.

As to braked approaches, that will work only if there is a relatively stiff headwind. There is no effect (or even a negative effect) if the student got confused and is landing crosswind/downwind, or when the wind is variable or there is no wind at all.

Also, we teach that the basic toggle position in the pattern is 'full drive' (or whatever it's called in English). Students are inclined to fly in slight brakes as it is. I don't want students to fly the final leg of their pattern in half-brakes (or deeper) as that will limit the flare performance of their canopies. I especially don;t want to risk the student to have their canopy surge downward just above the ground because they are flying in heavyish brakes but want to flare from full drive.

Lower man has the right of way - but as an experienced jumper you probably originally were coming from above the student.
If an experieced jumper cannot handle being in the pattern with inexperienced jumpers, they're welcome to either:
- land off.
- land away from the student
- keep from doing HP landings (ANY front riser input)
- (at bigger DZs) stay away from the student area.

kimemerson

I also stress a good set-up and early planning: Figuring it out before the downwind leg even begins.

I'm sure that's a good approach with novices, but you can hardly expect a FJC student to show the kind of insight necessary for such decisions.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[peek 20]

Baksteen

I'm apparently getting lost in translation somewhere. KimEmerson defines S-turns as 180's.

I don't think Kim was specifically defining S-turns at that point. He was describing what is on the USPA A license Proficiency card and relating it to S-turns.

Quote

We teach:"Pull down your toggle until you change heading and go back to full drive. Repeat if necessary in the other direction and then turn back into the wind." We call this shashaying in Dutch. But I thought the English wording for this was "making S-turns".

I would call what you teach something between a sashay and an S-turn. I define sashay as very small turns alternating so quickly that the direction of the canopy changes very little.

I suggest that the main purpose of the sashay is to create a descent rate quicker than full flight.

[pchapman 261]

I find mild S-turns useful when doing tandems, even if my DZO disagrees, for getting accurate landings by the camera flyer. In that situation one is down to being in the air only with a few other similar speed, slow canopies. (On the occasion that one is on final at the same time as another tandem, then of course one flies straighter.)(Do the thousands of tandem instructors out there all really only use brakes to adjust their final approach, and guess their predicted glide path perfectly at the time they turn onto final??)

Since these days in general we are looking to land along a 'runway strip' and not all 'hit the bowl', the need for S-turns is reduced greatly. The function of S-turns is to a large degree taken up by adjusting one's pattern instead. You adjust your circuit with things like slower or tighter downwind to final turns, or extending the base leg, when your guess of where to turn onto base isn't perfect.

[sammielu 3]

Students come up with all kinds of things as they're learning. As long as we give them good coaching, explain why S turns don't work, give them tools that will work (predictable landing patterns with accuracy), and at some point enforce good canopy flight as required to complete student jumps, they will learn.

For licensed jumpers, S turns are unpredictable, so are a No when sharing airspace.

[wmw999 2,114]

That's the problem -- S turns DO work for the person making them. You have to convince the newbie that the downside of unpredictability is greater. Especially since many people think they can figure out well enough whether there's anyone close.

Once we quit rewarding people more for landing close than for good landing discipline, it'll be a little easier.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[tkhayes 123]

some stuff on S-Turns in there as well - good practice tool, but only used as practice, not really a great way to fly your parachute in normal patterns. learn the accuracy tricks and never have to do that.

[tred 0]

Quote

We already discussed in the section about “Making it back to the DZ” that
adding brakes makes you go further by adding lift.

Most of Your article refers to 9cell zp, would anything change with a seven cell like a triathlon in regards to using brakes?

[Pablo.Moreno 0]

If I see anyone doing an S- turn anywhere in their pattern, I am landing out and staying the f@#$ck away from that person and also giving them shit after we all land nice an safe.

The beauty of the pattern is that it is predictable and easy to follow and fly with one canopy, two or 23 at the same time.

As as Student if they overshoot, there is not a BIG deal. They can walk back and maybe for next jump they will set up more efficiently taking into consideration the wind conditions. That will help them way more in the long run rather than trying to adjust fixating on landing in the target every single time even though it would come to the risk for them and everyone flying with them.

[Steel808 0]

What if the person doing it was last to land, or flying with people that knew their behaviour. And it wasn't being done for landing accuracy, but rather for fun, as a last second adrenaline rush before landing?

[format 0]

Steel808

Just want to get people opinions on S-turns during final approach

Once upon a time
I used "S-turns" (left then right) to get where I imagined I should land.

There was a highley loaded friend behid me who really tried to figure out where I'm going.. then finally quit and landed out.

Whenever I meet him afterward, I feel gratitude for not swalowing my teeth at the time.. by him.

[wolfriverjoe 1,339]

Steel808

What if the person doing it was last to land, or flying with people that knew their behaviour. And it wasn't being done for landing accuracy, but rather for fun, as a last second adrenaline rush before landing?

If it's at a "single 182" DZ where you are absolutely certain that the other 3 on the plane are down before you, then maybe. Although doing radical maneuvers close to the ground requires a lot of skill and planning to be done safely.

Anywhere else, where there is any possibility of someone being above and behind them in the pattern, then they need a stern talking to, a grounding or perhaps something more severe.

tred

Most of Your article refers to 9cell zp, would anything change with a seven cell like a triathlon in regards to using brakes?

Not really. The lower aspect ratio won't fly quite as efficiently, but the overall behavior is similar.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[tikl68 6]

I agree S turns are not good for many reasons stated in this thread, but to answer your question hillson at Elsinore if you fuck up your pattern and over shoot when landing to the south your choices are packing tent or props spinning on an otter loading up. Have seen many of both scenarios in my 12 years working and jumping there. One as recent as memorial week end that just passed, i have video of someone landing right behind the otter,thankfully it was shut down, and the S&TA was in the landing area and watched it happen,then THE TALK. He was an experienced CRW dog with other canopies in the pattern.

[tikl68 6]

Still not a good idea. Reinforces bad muscle memory and is bad example for people(students) on the ground watching,and trust me they are watching.

[yoink 321]

Steel808

And it wasn't being done for landing accuracy, but rather for fun, as a last second adrenaline rush before landing?

It used to be called toggle-whipping. And we worked out that there are much safer ways to increase your speed for landing...

[tkhayes 123]

I am not familiar with the braked flight of the Triathlon - that is a pretty old canopy, so it probably sinks more than it glides in brakes. You would have to try it out in normal flight to see how far the various brake settings get you.

[tikl68 6]

Hey Tred, I have 1000 + jumps on my tri 135 and 400 of those are as video for crw team. If you barely ease in to the brakes it will increase your glide path and not stop your forward flight as stated earlier in the thread even though it is an old design.If you apply very little input and your wing feels like it is stalling your brake lines might be lil on the short side. That being said there is a point where the brake input will significantly slow/stop your forward progress but not be on the verge of stalling. The line between the two is not as fine as rumored. Dont hold that for an extended period specially if you are closer to the stop moving forward input. Even though brake input is not at "stall"lenghth robbing canopy of lift for too long you will ease into a stall. As with any new maneuvers ask competent people and try them up high. Most crw dogs are familliar with tris as they are/were good for crw so they probably have experience on that wing. A lot of this depends on the length of your brake lines also. I have purposly stalled my canopy with both toggle input and rear riser input to find that point.

[faulknerwn 36]

I own a bunch of Triathlons, have ~3000 CRW jumps, and jump at a small dz without much traffic. I sink my Triathlons in on a regular basis. It is REALLY obvious when they are going to stall and its easily avoidable. Funny enough - I did a a relaxed pull at altitude yesterday and decided to check how much altitude I lose in a half braked 360 turn on a Tri 135 loaded at 1.2 I lost 120 feet. I know for a fact I can do a deep braked turn and lose less than that. I know my stall points.

And I completely agree S-turns should be avoided at all possible. but many people jump at dzs with small landing areas and 200 foot tall trees on either side. I would rather see an S-turn than a tree landing.

[tikl68 6]

I agree with you, would rather see a sashay than hitting any number of obstacles found at various DZs but like you said a braked turn might be better. If done early as soon as you realize oh shit, might only need 5 degrees, which might not be drastic enough to hose your buddy behind you. I stall and collapse my tri for fun, but wouldnt dare try that on my cross fire 2 119, but even that has decent braked turn capability.

[JohnMitchell 14]

pchapman

I find mild S-turns useful when doing tandems, even if my DZO disagrees, for getting accurate landings by the camera flyer. In that situation one is down to being in the air only with a few other similar speed, slow canopies.

Same here, and all the instructors I work with try to ensure "stacked" landings to avoid traffic problems. There is a new factor, that sometimes wingsuiters are now landing the same time as we are. Most are respectful of the bigger, less maneuverable tandem canopies, but we should watch for problems.

Quote

You adjust your circuit with things like slower or tighter downwind to final turns, or extending the base leg, when your guess of where to turn onto base isn't perfect.

Agree, but extending the base leg may have the same traffic effect as an S-turn, by cutting off multiple "lanes of traffic". We use two parallel landing lanes at our DZ, much as Eloy does. You're supposed to keep not just your landing, but your pattern, on your side of the line.

[marilynmac 0]

At my DZ, S-turns on final are not allowed. But 360's on final are.

[tred 0]

tikl68,
thanks for the info, I was able to practice with my canopy over the weekend and have a somewhat better idea of whats going on now. and it didn't seem too difficult to recognize when I was starting to stall

[kallend 1,619]

On most big-ways the instructions are NO S-turns or deep brakes on final.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[peek 20]

kallend

On most big-ways the instructions are NO S-turns or deep brakes on final.

Yes, I've heard that, and it sounds like a good policy.

I wish that we could balance the need for people to know those techniques, while at the same time teaching that they are to be used only if really needed and if they are the only person in the sky in that area.

But it seems like a lot of skydiving instruction now is just about saying "no" instead of providing an environment where judgement can be developed.

[yoink 321]

peek

But it seems like a lot of skydiving instruction now is just about saying "no" instead of providing an environment where judgement can be developed.

But in the same way that we don't teach toggle-whipping any more as a technique for HP landings because there are better options, can we do away with the need for S-turns if we start teaching canopy accuracy earlier?
Braked approaches and the Accuracy Trick of finding the unmoving spot on the ground aren't that complex of an idea. Hell, make the predeclared landings part of the A card - it would give the students stuff to work on during their consols.