0
Steel808

S-turns on final

Recommended Posts

Just want to get people opinions on S-turns during final approach, or during any part of the landing pattern. Are you ok with it? Does it matter what your discipline is? ( ie Free fly, swoop, wingsuit). Are there instances when it is nessasary?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are there instances where it's necessary? Sure, if your only other options are unavoidable obstacles. In most cases like thatI think a braked turn would serve you better though.

I'd say that s-turns (and by that I mean big 180 degree swings one way and then another) are the tool of a student. Once you've got even a little experience there are better ways to predict and control your landing. To see an experienced jumper using them smacks not only of piss poor planning, but also a lack of awareness of others.

The risk associated with them increases dramatically when you use them in a landing pattern with other experienced jumpers due to the unexpectedness of them - we know students are capable of anything so stay away from them in the air but if I'm landing in an experienced landing area then I expect others to behave predictably. That lets me fly safely... You have no problem driving fast next to another car on the freeway, but would you do it if you knew they might make sudden shifts in direction?


To my mind the only legitimate use of them is in accuracy comps with accuracy style canopies, which very few people do or have any more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am asking this in preparation for a discussion about landing etiquette. I personally agree that there is no place for them except for obstical avoidance. Doing them for "fun" on final is dangerous regardless of whether you're the first down or the very last. And I feel like it sets a bad example to the newer jumpers. When they are watching an experienced, well respected jumper doing them, it can give the impression that it is ok to do at anytime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IMO the few times you should see S-turns once in the pattern are imminent danger of injury of missed target, or tandems landing. I don't teach it in AFF. Why would you teach something to a student then as soon as they are off student status tell them that they are no longer ok to do?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jtiflyer

Why would you teach something to a student then as soon as they are off student status tell them that they are no longer ok to do?



When i teach the FJC I emphasise that S-turns are only OK on final, not in any other leg of the pattern and only as a means to correct for overshoot (into the cornfield for instance). Once they get a little more canopy time, the S-turns are phased out because the student is learning to fly their pattern actively, instead of waiting to reach the ground.

The reason for S-turns is two fold:
On one hand students cannot be expected to make an accurate estimate of where they are going to land. This is not a problem if you haver the luxury of a huge obstacle-free landing area. If you do not, you have to offer an alternative to hitting the fence or landing in a ditch once the student overshoots their landing area. S-turns are better than panic turns, IMO.

The other thing that might lead to students having to perform S-turns is our own fault.
Student canopies are huge and of course lightly loaded. Unless you actually jump a student canopy from time to time, I think it is very easy to underestimate the distance students can travel under their Mantas. Hence, we might be inclined to brief patterns which are on the tight side. No problem so long as a student actively flies, but a possible factor anyway.
I recently found this out first hand when I made a SL-jump on a student canopy when a fellow instructor was being checked out for dropping SL-students and decided to stick to the briefing I'd given to the real students. Had I done nothing, I would have overshot the landing area by quite a wide margin.

So yes, I teach S-turns.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe as a one off for obstacle avoidance but whenever I see someone that has a habit of them I find a bit of education on flying predictable patterns (how to, and why it is safer) goes a long way.

Edited to add: S turns are a danger to other people because they will not know, and have no way to work out, what you are doing, below around 1500 feet everyone should be flying a predictable pattern and not spiraling etc. there is just no need for it. I almost grounded someone a few months back for constant s turning on finals and cutting other people up.

For those that are wondering each leg of your landing pattern (downwind, Base, and Final) should be flown using straight lines. If you need to adjust you can change the angle slightly. A lot of people really need to start concentrating more on their canopy flights and learning how to land accurately without endangering others.

Canopy courses are worth every penny you spend on them and then some.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Baksteen

So yes, I teach S-turns.


Do you also explain why it can be a bad idea and that it can create more risks for others?

It is also very important to teach how to fly a regular, predictable pattern. If you overshoot the landing area, you have to adjust your landing pattern accordingly the next time. Too often you see people making s-turns jump after jump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Please stop teaching S turns for final. They are not anything an experienced skydiver should be doing so it makes sense to not teach them. They are dangerous because of their unpredictability to anyone else attempting to negotiate their own landing. They teach, by sanctioning, unsafe behavior. S turns are an asset only when landing off or if no one else is in the air at the time. I teach braked approaches to avoid landing long. I also stress a good set-up and early planning: Figuring it out before the downwind leg even begins. There's just no logical reason for even introducing S turns for final. It should be taught only as a dire emergency situation (if landing at the DZ with others) and not as a viable landing approach. If - IF - one is to do an S turn approach on final it must be pointed out that that alone indicates an initial fuck-up and that fuck up needs to be addressed too. If a student must do an S turn on final it should be made clear that that damn well ought to be the last time they do, and appropriate re-training or review should begin as soon as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Better not do something that is bad practice and easily avoidable with a bit of training.

You may think you're the only one in the air but it's not certain. There may be multiple passes. Maybe there are canopy pilots on the next load who're out at 5k under small highly loaded canopies, rapidly catching up with you.

You may overlook the one person in the air with you, turn into his canopy and kill him. Canopy collisions kill a lot of good people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
billeisele

when does "rocking your canopy" to loose altitude become an S-turn?



I was thinking about that too. I assume he is referring to what I know as a "sashay". The answer to that would probably be, "whenever someone doesn't understand what a sashay is, and gives you trouble for doing what they consider an S turn."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kimemerson

S turns are an asset only when landing off or if no one else is in the air at the time. ... It should be taught only as a dire emergency situation ... and not as a viable landing approach.



I think we all agree with that, but how does a person learn to use S turns without practicing them at some point? (Probably in the regular landing area.)

Braked approaches of course should be used rather than S turns, but I have found that so many students as well as jumpers with less experience, are terrified of deep brakes. They hear the term "stall", and it's over. Done. They're not doing that.

With many of the canopies that they jump, being afraid of deep brakes and using only using partial brakes actually extends their glide, the opposite of what is desired.

Some student rigs are set up with slack in the steering lines, and combined with large canopies, are not in "deep brakes" without taking 2 to 4 wraps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chemist

is it ok if you looke behind and to the side of you to check for traffic before doing them? Or what if you know you're the last canopy in the air (last out in a wingsuit, higher pull?).




I posed this in the original question. However, my thoughts are that they should never be done, regardless of position in the pattern. Reason being, you are:
A: building bad habits that can show themselves at the wrong time. Sure, you might be able to switch it on and off whenever you want. But what if it accidentally rears its ugly head at the wrong time?
B: teaching students who are watching that it is ok to do turns like that near the ground. Students are impressionable, and pick up bad habits quicker than experienced jumpers, making it difficult to break them of it down the road.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The general concept of S turns can be practiced higher up, where it doesn't make a difference. 180° toggle & riser turns are part of the A license proficiency card. And it isn't like proximity to the ground drastically changes the general concept. Learning how to do S turns is not much more than learning how to turn. It's elementary FJC stuff.

As for being terrified of brake turns or approaches, all I can say is I'm sorry. I'm more terrified of landing in the river, tree, building, plane, road, oncoming bus... Because the technique is a known. We're not asking anyone to try anything that has not been proven. And as it is a preferred method over S turns or sashaying on final, the choice is clear: Lose the terror or work through it. That or go away.

Even student canopies can be slowed down and the glide ratio shortened. I agree that deeper brakes or a wrap or two would be even better. But they can still be slowed. Full flight or S turns are not the only options just because it's a Manta or Navigator.

Aside from students themselves it is also a matter of teaching future habits for when they become licensed and stop jumping student canopies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steel808

Just want to get people opinions on S-turns during final approach, or during any part of the landing pattern. Are you ok with it? Does it matter what your discipline is? ( ie Free fly, swoop, wingsuit). Are there instances when it is nessasary?



You said landing pattern so NO they are not ok but if you set yourself up to run into an airplane or building then please CAREFULY perform very deliberate S turns while kicking your legs and LOOKING over your shoulders to make eye contact to make sure those behind you know you screwed the pooch and watch and get our of your way. Then when you land apologies and buy beer. :)

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I get what you're saying BUT...since when is an S turn required to miss a building or a plane? If you have time to toggle monkey, look all around and kick your legs you certainly have the time to make the small heading change that is required to miss the object.

I guess if you've run out of Schlitz...but there are still better ways to handle it...especially so people in the stack don't have to play "dodge the dummy..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Just want to get people opinions on S-turns during final approach, or during any part
>of the landing pattern. Are you ok with it?

Nope. If you are alone in the pattern and you don't know how to fly your canopy yet (i.e. a student) then sometimes it's OK. But experienced jumpers flying in a landing pattern should never S-turn; the risk of killing someone else is too high. If you are going to overfly, choose another landing area or use one of the many other ways to shorten your glide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0