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chuckakers

What's the real deal on Argus Inspections

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I'm a little confused. I'm looking at new AAD's and getting conflicting reports on inspections. I was planning on getting a Vigil because I like the idea of no mandated inspections and no specific life limit. Then a local rigger told me the Argus also has no inspection requirement.

Looking at the Argus website, it says in the FAQ section that there is a 4 year inspection requirement. I used the website "contact" form to ask what the inspection entails, what it costs, and where it can be conducted (authorized service center where?).

The website also says the Argus has an expected life of "more than 12 years". I asked them how a determination is made as to when it is no longer servicable.

That was over 2 weeks ago and I still haven't received a response.>:(

Help, please. What's the real deal?
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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I couldn't tell you about the Argus, but I can tell you that according to the manufacturer, the Vigil has a life expectancy of 20 years, contrary to what you were saying about no limit. See http://www.vigil.aero/faq.



My bad, but this still leaves a question. Whether referring to the Vigil or the Argus, I'm wondering what criteria would cause either of these units to "life out" or no longer be serviable. There's nothing on either website explaining how a determination will be made when the time comes.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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I was speaking to one of tyhe owners of Argus the other day here in California, he is on holiday.

He was saying the argus has inspections but does not have a life expectency, his opinion was that if after 12 years it is inspected and found to be airworthy, why take it out of service.

Personally I believe these things should be serviced relativley frequently, electronics have a way of deciding for themselves when and how they are going to work.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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Yeah, I agree. So, I know Chuting Star is set up as a servie station for the argus, and AFAIK Tommy Dolphin in KC is as well (but you'll need to double check on that). I believe the Argus inspections will be a lot $less$ than cypres.
=========Shaun ==========


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Sorry for the thread drift but I guess I don't see the big deal with a huge service life?

Some of the original AAD's on the market have an unlimited service life correct? But you don't see a lot of rigs with sentinels in them any more!

I am pretty sure that by the time my cypres II is expired in 8 more years there will be something else that I will want to upgrade to that is even more refined and improved.

Or maybe in eight years I will be pissed that I have to buy a new AAD. :ph34r:

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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I submitted a question to Aviacom SA through there website as well and thought I didn't get a response, but in fact, their prompt reply ended up in my gmail "junkmail" folder. If you have some filters set up on your email, that may have happened with your message, too.

Ben
Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

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Hi,

By tests (including artificial aging) we could determine that the lifetime expectancy is at least 12 years. How the unit is handled during that period can have an influence on the life time.

The Argus has a 4 yearly mandatory inspection cycle. Amongst other things will performance data be compared with the performance data during production. All data has to remain within the set parameters. If so and if the rest of the inspection is OK, the unit will be released. By this process is also future use taken into consideration. I.e the unit might perform well at present but also an acceptable (safe) performance must be guaranteed over the whole next 4 years.

For more in depth info you can download our Design and Test report (see link below)

The nearest service center for you will be Chuting Star in Atlanta.

In the near future more service centers across the USA will be opened.

Anyhow this was a good reminder to update our FAQ section

Warm regards,
William
Aviacom/ Argus
http://argus-aad.connexeon.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=189&Itemid=45B|

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Sorry for the thread drift but I guess I don't see the big deal with a huge service life?



A service life is not a big deal BUT if you want to calculate total costs of owernship compared to other AADs you need to know what the service life is.

Quote


I am pretty sure that by the time my cypres II is expired in 8 more years there will be something else that I will want to upgrade to that is even more refined and improved.



If you don't fly rediculously small canopies (nearly all jumpers don't), don't run a high risk of water landings (nearly all jumpers don't), don't make over 500 jumps in 2 years (most jumpers don't), there arguably isn't a reason to upgrade to something "new and improved" beyond the 17 year old Cypres-1 (apart from the first five years' production being timed out and ones enough past their 8 year due date effectively worth only their trade-in value).

The newer AADs don't provide solid evidence to suggest a longer service life, but have experienced more teething pains than the mature Cypres.

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Hi,

By tests (including artificial aging) we could determine that the lifetime expectancy is at least 12 years. How the unit is handled during that period can have an influence on the life time.

The Argus has a 4 yearly mandatory inspection cycle. Amongst other things will performance data be compared with the performance data during production. All data has to remain within the set parameters. If so and if the rest of the inspection is OK, the unit will be released. By this process is also future use taken into consideration. I.e the unit might perform well at present but also an acceptable (safe) performance must be guaranteed over the whole next 4 years.

For more in depth info you can download our Design and Test report (see link below)

The nearest service center for you will be Chuting Star in Atlanta.

In the near future more service centers across the USA will be opened.

Anyhow this was a good reminder to update our FAQ section

Warm regards,
William
Aviacom/ Argus
http://argus-aad.connexeon.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=189&Itemid=45B|




Do you know the cost of the 4 year inspection? And by your description, it sounds like - in theory - an Argus could reach its' demise on any inspection, not just at the 12+ year mark???
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Do you know the cost of the 4 year inspection?



What the cost will be of the 4 year inspection depends on where it will be performed (I speak here globally) and what the hourly rate is (differs per country). The first units due for service come back in April 2010. Bearing in mind the current economical situation I honestly cannot answer how much it will be in 2 years. We have chosen for a system with several local service centers near the users. By doing so, we keep costs and turn around time as low as possible.



Quote

it sounds like - in theory - an Argus could reach its' demise on any inspection, not just at the 12+ year mark???



The 4 year inspection is done to assure that the unit remains in good working order. If we during one of these inspections discover that the unit is not up to the set standard anymore it has to be repaired or replaced. The unit is designed to last longer than 12 years but (just like any other piece of electronics) you may have a unit that ceases operation sooner. By normal use we replace (or repair) than free of charge.

normal use is that youtreated the AAD well (battery change in time, 4 yearly inspection carried out, by water landing filters in time replaced etc.)

William

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The newer AADs don't provide solid evidence to suggest a longer service life, but have experienced more teething pains than the mature Cypres.



such as the random mis-fires due to sensor problems that have occurred in recent times that required a large number of them to be returned to Airtec.

Such as random problems with the display unit where they are counting down and then the screen goes blank and when the screen comes back on it is counting down from a different place again and ends up with a non-zero value when it has finished its self test but is still armed??

hmmm, these do not fill me with confidence or suggest that the 'mature' Cypres has no teething problems. The fact of the matter is that Cypres has its share of problems still.

I for one prefer the ethos of Aviacom as a company who have made all the material and testing available to the public and does not hide behind closed doors
I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

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From the Argus Installation Manual

The 4 year check includes the following:

Check of the electronics, the cutter, and the program
Visual inspection of the overall state of AAD, the seals, and the connectors
Replacement of batteries and filter (if necessary)
Functional testing Fire/No Fire with a test probe.
Collection of data in the Argus
Application of control seal
Test certification


So, if necessary repairs are needed, they are NOT included; the customer (if we know his informations like Tel, e-mail), will be informed before the repairs along with an estimate of the cost(s).

Willem DRIESSENS
Logistic Manager

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So, if necessary repairs are needed, they are NOT included; the customer (if we know his informations like Tel, e-mail), will be informed before the repairs along with an estimate of the cost(s).



I hope you are thinking about changing this.

The CYPRES people include any required repairs and adjustments in their price.

When I got my ARGUS, it was a word of mouth advertising point that the service cost was expected to be significantly lower than for a CYPRES.

I don't really think that $125 meets that prediction, especially if required repairs are not included.

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Well, everything will dêpend on what we are talking about !

"Required repairs" can be subject to different things and levels.

For example:
1. If a "required repair" is caused by abnormal use (overthigtening of screws or connectors), it will be invoiced.
2. If a "required repair" is a result of experience gained (like a software improvement), it is free of charge.

Willem DRIESSENS
Logistic Manager

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Well, everything will dêpend on what we are talking about !

"Required repairs" can be subject to different things and levels.

For example:
1. If a "required repair" is caused by abnormal use (overthigtening of screws or connectors), it will be invoiced.
2. If a "required repair" is a result of experience gained (like a software improvement), it is free of charge.

Willem DRIESSENS
Logistic Manager



Thanks for the quick reply!

This statement is really quite different from the earlier one, and I am much more pleased with it.

I never expected you to cover obvious mishandling. Still, I hope you limit the claiming mishandling to obvious mistreatment, such as the screws you mention.

If, for example, the unit has cable problems, I hope you won't be claiming misuse when both the owner and the rigger say that the device was handled properly.

In other words, I hope you will give the customer every benefit of the doubt if it is at all unclear as to the cause of a problem.

One of the reasons I have supported and helped to sell your AADs over the years was the apparent intent to give the customer a high quality, more fully featured product at an improved price.

It is essential to me that you continue to set this as a goal in the longer term with superior maintenance and support policies.

Again, thanks for the quick response!

-paul

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