Darwinian candidate AKA who the hell taght this guy ?

[Squeak 17]

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Just because you have gotten away with it, does not mean either necessarily, that it is "right".

Glad that this progression, for you, indeed seems to have worked out - for you. But now as a result, are you saying you are recommending it?

It's not that "I am getting away with it" it's the way that it's done in this country.

Don't make it personal

The down sizing patterns here are less conservative than those practiced in the USofA,. It's not like I was told do down size faster or any differently to other jumpers in this country.


Like I said before.
Just because you (you as in your country) do something a particular way does not mean it's the only way it gets done.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[SimonBones 1]

Hahahaha!

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Almost a thousand jumps so far and no medical bills so my luck is holding out, but thanks for your well wishes

I said that exact same thing once! Holy crap! Pretty much word for word when I had about 900 jumps! Somewhere around 950 jumps I lost my footing while screwing off on a landing and broke my tib/fib. I had almost 500 jumps on that canopy at the time too! I can't believe I just read that! Cue twilight zone music.

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[Squeak 17]

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Hahahaha!

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Almost a thousand jumps so far and no medical bills so my luck is holding out, but thanks for your well wishes

I said that exact same thing once! Holy crap! Pretty much word for word when I had about 900 jumps! Somewhere around 950 jumps I lost my footing while screwing off on a landing and broke my tib/fib. I had almost 500 jumps on that canopy at the time too! I can't believe I just read that! Cue twilight zone music.

Thanks Fucker

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Travman 6]

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...it's the way that it's done in this country.

I disagree. I have never seen any instructors at my DZ recommend this sort of W/L for a first rig. Four of these instructors are currently representing Australia at the world cup of canopy piloting. Two of these instructors didn't downsize from their first canopies for almost 1000 jumps and have encouraged others to do the same.

I think saying "it's the way it's done in this country" is a bit of a generalization.

[Halfpastniner 0]

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...it's the way that it's done in this country.

Two of these instructors didn't downsize from their first canopies for almost 1000 jumps and have encouraged others to do the same.

Well yea....thats why they have to buy really small canopys for their first ones!

BASE 1384

[mrbiceps 0]

This guy is nuts. New jumpers should be smart enough not to get caught up in the downsizing to look cool thing. ive only done 50 jumps and my 215 will do me for a long time thank you very much.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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This guy is nuts. New jumpers should be smart enough not to get caught up in the downsizing to look cool thing. ive only done 50 jumps and my 215 will do me for a long time thank you very much.

It's not about looking cool and it's unrealistic to expect new jumpers to know better when their instructors are telling them differently.

Smaller parachutes are more fun until you run into problems. New jumpers lacking both exceptionally bad luck and judgement haven't had a chance to personally experience those problems. In a world where we repeatedly tell them that they should listen to their local instructors instead of people on the internet, when their instructors tell them they'll be OK under a small canopy they listen.

[Travman 6]

To clarify, one of the instructors was on a Sabre 150, which would have been a wingloading of 1:1 for his first and the other was on something I believe was around the 200ft size, again about the 1:1 mark.

[kelpdiver 2]

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=70214;d=1

In case the ad gets pulled down :

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I'm still looking to buy my first rig. I'm 6' and I weight 180 pounds. I know a 150 seams to be quite small for me specially with only 35 jumps, but after talking with my instructors, a 150 would be a better choice for me. Specially if I want to keep it for a couple of years. Will like the RSL and the ADD. make an offer, I can give good money!! thanks

This isn't remotely in the Darwin Award ballpark. 1.3 - sheesh, we see those guys every month. A significant number of our sport do something that risky each year.

You want to give a nomination - the guy needs to be 'borrowing' a Cani special and trying to land that 39er.

[Squeak 17]

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To clarify, one of the instructors was on a Sabre 150, which would have been a wingloading of 1:1 for his first and the other was on something I believe was around the 200ft size, again about the 1:1 mark.

You're probably talking about Vaughny and Robbie.
Put it in perspective a little Vaughny weighs in at 2/10th of nothing and putting him on a smaller than 150 canopy would have been just silly.
Also both Michael and robbie strted jumping a LONG time ago when the canopy progressions were different in this country.
you know as well i I do Trav, that it is not uncommon here in OZ for a 1st rig choice to be for a 150-170ish canopy that will load up at about 1.2-1.3.
I have seen it in Qld NSW and WA. and you will often find 170ish canopies advertised as "good 1st canopy"

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

NOTE-Before you flame me, I jump a 190 loaded at 1:1 (almost exactly-193# with all my gear on my bathroom scale) I have jumped a 170 sabre2 a few times, but am happy with my triathalon and plan on keeping it for a while.

Here in the US we seem to be rather conservative with downsizing. After what was going on a few years ago when I first started, I can understand. Way too many people were jumping gear they had no business using and paying the price.
In response, the pendulum swung the other way (as it tends to do under any circumstances) and even responsible downsizing can be criticized. The way the OP worded the "I've completed Bill's 'Downsize Checklist' now what?" thread is a good example.

I'm not advocating rapid downsizing, just pointing out that the US is more conservative than other places and my take on why it is so.

IMO the biggest problem isn't the actual downsizing, its the mindset and attitude of those who want to downsize too fast. They have "Madskilz" or "big canopies are too slow" or whatever. These people will find a way to get hurt or killed no matter what size canopy they are flying because they either overestimate their ability, underestimate the danger, or somehow don't believe it could happen to them.
Near misses don't seem to scare or teach them anything. I don't know what (if anything) can be done about it, other than keeping myself safer by not jumping with idiots

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jsaxton 0]

;)

[jsaxton 0]

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Almost a thousand jumps so far and no medical bills so my luck is holding out, but thanks for your well wishes

that's OK, I didn't get my metal until after 1000 jumps, don't be in such a hurry

[Squeak 17]

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Almost a thousand jumps so far and no medical bills so my luck is holding out, but thanks for your well wishes

that's OK, I didn't get my metal until after 1000 jumps, don't be in such a hurry

beleive me i'm notWhilst i did do from a 230 to a 150 at 40ish jumps i went to a 135 at 500 jumps and still jump it now, and cant see my self changing anytime soon

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[jacketsdb23 45]

I don't think 1.3 is Darwinian. I was over 1.3 under 100 jumps. 1.3 is just a #. Until we see this person fly we really can't judge. Some people can probably fly that just fine. Others would hurt themselves under a wingloading of 0.8.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[likestojump 3]

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I don't think 1.3 is Darwinian. I was over 1.3 under 100 jumps. 1.3 is just a #. Until we see this person fly we really can't judge. Some people can probably fly that just fine. Others would hurt themselves under a wingloading of 0.8.

and until we can definitely identify the people who ARE able to fly a 1.3 at udner 100 jumps, I personally feel that it's best to err on the side of caution.

"It's cool dude, I got 50 jumps, but I am a natural. Everybody at the DZ tells me I jump like i have over 500 jumps". That's something that is heard almost daily. Do we really have that many naturals in our ranks ?

[jacketsdb23 45]

I understand where you are coming from. I would never recommend what I did. That is why I don't give out canopy advice

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[BUBLHED 0]

I haven't yet jumped anything more that a 1.17 WL,but how much differance is there really between 1.1 and 1.3 as far as speed and responsiveness? This same canopy when I bought it I was at a 1.05 WL then either I got fatter or MAYBIE IT SHRUNK but I never really noticed a differance, even when I had taken a few years off. I think Brians chart is alittle to conservitive but don't think anyone should get to small to fast. Just curious as to what the effects of 2 tenths WL really are?

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[likestojump 3]

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I haven't yet jumped anything more that a 1.17 WL,but how much differance is there really between 1.1 and 1.3 as far as speed and responsiveness? This same canopy when I bought it I was at a 1.05 WL then either I got fatter or MAYBIE IT SHRUNK but I never really noticed a differance, even when I had taken a few years off. I think Brians chart is alittle to conservitive but don't think anyone should get to small to fast. Just curious as to what the effects of 2 tenths WL really are?

you have been in the sport for 21 years, surely you can tell us.

Do you really think that what you felt has situated well in your memory over so few jumps X amount of YEARS prior ?

Personally I feel quite different between a 1.0 and a 1.3 (jumped on the same day, not years apart).

PS Canopy shrunk ? How ? Why do you think it's a possibility, and what do you think could have caused that ?

[BUBLHED 0]

[you have been in the sport for 21 years, surely you can tell us.]

Actually 22 years, my first canopy was a modified Unit 3 in a Wonderhog with the round reserve off course, Square reserves we still kinda scary and not recommended for young jumpers at my Dz . And as I've said I haven't gone smaller than 1.17 never felt the need. Just curious as to how much differance .2 WL really makes especially so small 1.1 vs 1.3?

[PS Canopy shrunk ? How ? Why do you think it's a possibility, and what do you think could have caused that ?]

Well It couldn't have been me getting fatter the damn thing must have shrunk!!!!!

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

How about 1.0:1 vs 1.1 (1.105 by my calculator)?
Some of the difference is in the canopies -190 Triathalon and 170 Sabre2.
There isn't a whole lot of difference, but I can feel a definite difference. Faster-both forward speed and descent. Quicker on turns-toggle and front riser. Somewhat faster going into the flare.
I'm fairly conservative (IOW chicken), so I was careful and paying close attention to what I was doing and what was going on. So I was more aware of the difference, and it wasn't dramatic. But it was there. Just my point of view, but you asked.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[hackish 8]

I got shit all over for buying and jumping a sabre2 170 at about the same number of jumps. I'd jumped a 150 as well before my 100th jump. Some on the interweb feel that anything smaller than a manta 280 before your 100th jump is suicide.

If I were an instructor I couldn't see recommending the 150 to someone with 35 jumps but who am I to know. It's not that vastly different from where I went.

From what I've seen recommendations like the 170 for me are not out of the ordinary in my part of Canada. I don't know why but clearly when you look at the stats the entire country has a better than average safety record.

-Michael

[billvon 2,384]

>Some on the interweb feel that anything smaller than a manta 280
>before your 100th jump is suicide.

I don't know anyone who thinks that.

[BUBLHED 0]

I didn't think there would be a huge differance.

Makes me wonder if a person of reasonable intelligence, self control and a strong sense of self preservation couldn't handle a canopy slightly smaller, especially if they are the type to do straight in landings. I know there is more to it, but if the canopy isn't accelerated past full glide speed on the approach seems reasonably safe to me.

Am I wrong? Under the conditions above of course.

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[billvon 2,384]

>especially if they are the type to do straight in landings.

These are the type that are actually most at risk. They have no idea how to turn the canopy near the ground when they get cut off because they have never tried before - so they just pull down a toggle. Afterwards everyone says "I can't understand it! He never did hook turns."