Argus

[virgin-burner 1]

so, how would YOU do it!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[BrianM 1]

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so, how would YOU do it!?

Do what? I'm not sure what you are asking.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[piisfish 135]

the difference between setting your altimeter and your Cypres (I don't know for the other AAD's so I won't comment) is that with your altimeter you are indicating on it what altitude you are at relative to your intended landing area. You will indicate your Cypres how much higher or lower your landing area is relative to your take-off area.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[BrianM 1]

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the difference between setting your altimeter and your Cypres (I don't know for the other AAD's so I won't comment) is that with your altimeter you are indicating on it what altitude you are at relative to your intended landing area. You will indicate your Cypres how much higher or lower your landing area is relative to your take-off area.

I know - that's what I've been saying all along. I'm still not sure what, specifically, virgin-burner is asking about. What is the "it" in "how would YOU do it"? It could refer to a number of things in the post he was replying to.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[riggerpaul 1]

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the difference between setting your altimeter and your Cypres (I don't know for the other AAD's so I won't comment) is that with your altimeter you are indicating on it what altitude you are at relative to your intended landing area. You will indicate your Cypres how much higher or lower your landing area is relative to your take-off area.

It is disappointing that the AAD designers did not recognize the precedent that had been established with the way we set our altimeters.

In the best world, altimeters and AADs would be set the same way when adjusting for landing zone altitude offsets.

Someone already mentioned that early AAD did it "backwards" long before the first CYPRES came onto the scene, so it isn't like I want to blame Airtec.

Once we had AADs that did it opposite the way our altimeters do, it was probably wise to continue doing it that way to avoid the additional confusion that some AADs are one way, while other AADs are the other.

Imagine the confusion if some AADs did it differently from other AADs. That would be a real mess!!

Here's a question I have wondered about. Are there any dropzones where you don your gear beside the landing area and hop on a van that takes you to the airport that is at a different altitude?

I think we are all familiar with the situation where the "club house" is at the airport, and the landing area is somewhere else. But what if the "club house" was at the landing area, and the airport was somewhere else? Are there any dropzones like that?

All the AADs now expect to be turned on at the airport, and you ride back from the lz.

[BrianM 1]

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It is disappointing that the AAD designers did not recognize the precedent that had been established with the way we set our altimeters.

In the best world, altimeters and AADs would be set the same way when adjusting for landing zone altitude offsets.

As I posted earlier, they are different because you are changing different things. One is changing the zero point, the other is changing the activation altitude. It is quite intuitive to me.

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Someone already mentioned that early AAD did it "backwards" long before the first CYPRES came onto the scene, so it isn't like I want to blame Airtec.

That was me. I was referring to the FXC 12000, in which case you are changing the activation altitude directly. That doesn't leave an option about which way the offset should work. Later AADs did the same thing - offset the activation altitude - which we were already familiar with doing. Seems like not a bad way to go.

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Here's a question I have wondered about. Are there any dropzones where you don your gear beside the landing area and hop on a van that takes you to the airport that is at a different altitude?

I haven't seen one like that. There was some talk about changing our DZ to work that way. It doesn't introduce any problems - just wait until you are at the airport to turn on the AAD, then don your rig (who wants to wear a rig for a 15 minute van ride anyway?).

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All the AADs now expect to be turned on at the airport, and you ride back from the lz.

Turning it on at the LZ then driving to the airport introduces some variables that would be very difficult to deal with even if you were trying to design an AAD that worked that way. Imagine this scenario: small elevation changes during the drive cause the AAD to keep re-zeroing itself to random elevations (because there is no way for the AAD to know the difference between small elevation changes and changes in barometric pressure). You then drive up a big steep hill, the AAD thinks it is a take off and enters jump mode (because there is no way for the AAD to know the difference between driving up a big hill and a take off). You now have an AAD that is zeroed to some random and unknown elevation. No, the way they work now is best. Just wait until getting to the airport before turning it on!

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[riggerpaul 1]

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As I posted earlier, they are different because you are changing different things. One is changing the zero point, the other is changing the activation altitude. It is quite intuitive to me.

The two are the same, of course. It is only a matter of point of view.

My point is that we already had the notion that you want your altimeter to read zero when you land. You know how to set your altimeter to achieve that result. The AAD setting could be done exactly the same way, and then you would not think about anything different at all. If you had set your altimeter to -400 at the airport because the landing area is 400 feet above you, you'd set your AAD to the same value.

The fact that the manuals all talk about the landing area altitude, and not the activation altitude, suggests to me that they were at least trying to have us thinking about the same thing, which is the elevation of the landing area.

That particular twist, thinking about the activation altitude instead of the landing area altitude, is something you did for yourself to take the confusion out of the process. I am not saying that is a bad thing. But it is what you taught yourself to deal with the confusion.

I am not saying that the whole issue is particularly difficult. It is not.

But, even though you never had a problem with it, some people have found it confusing. And that is not optimal.

If the AAD had been made to be set the same way as the altimeter, it would have been obvious to all, and nobody would ever be confused.

I think that would have been superior to the what we have now. Maybe not a whole lot superior, but superior nonetheless.

And just to be extra clear, I like the way you think about it, and I will remember that for use myself.

But I still think it would have been better if I could have thought of the two, altimeter and AAD, in exactly the same way in the first place.

[BrianM 1]

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The two are the same, of course. It is only a matter of point of view.

I'd say the two are different, but have the same result. But as an engineer with a background in writing firmware for microcontrollers like the ones used in modern AADs, I no doubt look at it differently than most. For all practical purposes as end users, you are, of course, correct.

As an engineer, I would also add that engineers are often not the best people to design user interfaces.

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But, even though you never had a problem with it, some people have found it confusing. And that is not optimal.

If the AAD had been made to be set the same way as the altimeter, it would have been obvious to all, and nobody would ever be confused.

Interesting - I've noticed the opposite. My experience, from 14 years of jumping at a DZ with an off-airport landing area, is that everyone seems to intuitively know which way to offset their AAD, but a lot of people want to offset their altimeters the wrong way. People tend to use wherever they are as the frame of reference, and think of other locations as being higher or lower - not the other way around. It can take a surprising amount of explaining to get people to understand why an altimeter offset works the way it does. I don't remember having to ever go through that explanation for an AAD - not once.

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And just to be extra clear, I like the way you think about it, and I will remember that for use myself.

Glad to have helped!

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[riggerpaul 1]

Some of the our different experiences and perceptions are no doubt rooted in the fact that I was jumping long before there were practical AADs for experienced jumpers. When I learned about how to correct an altimeter for an offset to the landing area, there was no other way to think about it but to set the altimeter with the landing area being zero.

The altitude correction on an altimeter is completely intuitive for me. You tell the altimeter where you are now relative to where you will be when you land. If I am below the landing area now, the altimeter displays a negative altitude when set correctly. If I am above the landing area now, the altimeter displays a positive altitude when set correctly.

So, when AADs came around, they were the one's whose correction method was not so intuitive.

We've never had an altimeter where you set it the way that you say seems intuitive for an AAD.

While some people choose not to use an AAD, virtually nobody does not own an altimeter.

So, even today, pretty much everybody needs to know how to properly set an altimeter.

Is the way the AAD works now more more intuitive overall. Maybe yes, maybe no. That's a different question we can discuss separately.

When you consider that pretty much everybody needs to be able to set an altimeter, why shouldn't we have wanted the AAD to be set the same way? Had it been done that way, nobody would ever be confused as to which one was set which way.

By the way, I also had a long career writing firmware in a variety of computer environments. I, too, can readily imagine what the firmware in an AAD looks like.

[BrianM 1]

Like you, I find offsetting an altimeter to be intuitive, but lots of people don't. I don't know how much AADs are to blame for this - I hear even people who don't have AADs saying "the landing area is x feet higher, so I want to set my alti x feet higher." Doesn't make sense to be - but I guess the human brain is not always logical! Gotta remember that offsetting altimeters and AADs is something most jumpers seldom or never have to do.

I'm not convinced that no one would get confused if AADs worked the other way. I think some people would get confused no matter what! I find that a lot of jumpers don't have a very good understanding of how their gear works, and that worries me. I try to keep a close eye on others, especially visitors and junior jumpers, to make sure they don't get either device set wrong. At least most will ask, which is a good thing.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[jurgencamps 0]

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the difference between setting your altimeter and your Cypres (I don't know for the other AAD's so I won't comment) is that with your altimeter you are indicating on it what altitude you are at relative to your intended landing area. You will indicate your Cypres how much higher or lower your landing area is relative to your take-off area.

You do not set you AAD higher or lower. You just change the activation altitude.

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Here's a question I have wondered about. Are there any dropzones where you don your gear beside the landing area and hop on a van that takes you to the airport that is at a different altitude?

I think we are all familiar with the situation where the "club house" is at the airport, and the landing area is somewhere else. But what if the "club house" was at the landing area, and the airport was somewhere else? Are there any dropzones like that?

All the AADs now expect to be turned on at the airport, and you ride back from the lz.

A good example when you have to change the activation altitude of your AAD: Skydive Spa in Belgium. The airport, DZ, clubhouse ... are at the same place. Sometimes jumprun takes you above a hill (+100 m, 330 ft). If you do not change the activation altitude of your AAD when this is the case, ...

And please stop comparing the AAD with an altimeter.

Jurgen

[riggerpaul 1]

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the difference between setting your altimeter and your Cypres (I don't know for the other AAD's so I won't comment) is that with your altimeter you are indicating on it what altitude you are at relative to your intended landing area. You will indicate your Cypres how much higher or lower your landing area is relative to your take-off area.

You do not set you AAD higher or lower. You just change the activation altitude.

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Here's a question I have wondered about. Are there any dropzones where you don your gear beside the landing area and hop on a van that takes you to the airport that is at a different altitude?

I think we are all familiar with the situation where the "club house" is at the airport, and the landing area is somewhere else. But what if the "club house" was at the landing area, and the airport was somewhere else? Are there any dropzones like that?

All the AADs now expect to be turned on at the airport, and you ride back from the lz.

A good example when you have to change the activation altitude of your AAD: Skydive Spa in Belgium. The airport, DZ, clubhouse ... are at the same place. Sometimes jumprun takes you above a hill (+100 m, 330 ft). If you do not change the activation altitude of your AAD when this is the case, ...

And please stop comparing the AAD with an altimeter.

Jurgen

First off, not that it is a really big thing, but the first segment of post you quoted was not mine. It was already a quote in my post. It originally came from someone else.

Anyway, I cannot agree that you are changing the activation altitude.

You are changing the landing area altitude, and the activation altitude follows from that.

If you were just changing the activation altitude, the AAD would not be able to shut off properly when you land.

Shutting off when you have landed is an important function of the AAD in order to prevent inadvertent activations.

At least one of the manuals cautions that you should check that the AAD has turned off when you land because a slight error in your offset setting might prevent that function.

If you were to say, set an EXPERT CYPRES to 3000 feet higher in order to use it on a tandem rig, you would not be getting a TANDEM CYPRES. If you just set an EXPERT CYPRES that way, it will shut off when you pass the new landing elevation you have set. If you were just changing the activation altitude, I don't think that would happen.

So it seems to me that you are, in fact, changing the AADs notion of the ground altitude at the landing area, and the activation altitude is the same as always for the mode or model of the AAD, and it is based on the altitude of the landing area.

As I said to BrianM, you can certainly think of it as changing the activation altitude if it helps you to remember how to set the AAD properly.

But all the manuals speak of adjusting for an offset to the landing area from the takeoff area, and I think you can take that literally.

Finally, I am not comparing an AAD and an altimeter. I am saying that since we had a precedent for an altitude adjustment, we should have stuck with it. Then there would be no need to remember which one you set which way.

[BillyVance 34]

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Here's a question I have wondered about. Are there any dropzones where you don your gear beside the landing area and hop on a van that takes you to the airport that is at a different altitude?

I think we are all familiar with the situation where the "club house" is at the airport, and the landing area is somewhere else. But what if the "club house" was at the landing area, and the airport was somewhere else? Are there any dropzones like that?

Yes. Skydive The Farm in Rockmart. The DZ, building, swoop ponds and LZs are on private property several miles from the airport, which sits approx. 150 feet higher in elevation for take-offs.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[riggerpaul 1]

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Yes. Skydive The Farm in Rockmart. The DZ, building, swoop ponds and LZs are on private property several miles from the airport, which sits approx. 150 feet higher in elevation for take-offs.

Do you ride to the airport and put your gear on there?

Are AADs turned on and altitude adjustments made while you are hurrying to board the plane?

Or do you arrange it so you are all ready and waiting when the aircraft arrives?

Do you turn hot loads?

I'm just wondering how it works out for you. Any details you'd like to share are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[BillyVance 34]

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Yes. Skydive The Farm in Rockmart. The DZ, building, swoop ponds and LZs are on private property several miles from the airport, which sits approx. 150 feet higher in elevation for take-offs.

Do you ride to the airport and put your gear on there?

Are AADs turned on and altitude adjustments made while you are hurrying to board the plane?

Or do you arrange it so you are all ready and waiting when the aircraft arrives?

Do you turn hot loads?

I'm just wondering how it works out for you. Any details you'd like to share are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

All jumpers ride the short bus from the DZ to the airport, take off from the airport and land back at the DZ. I don't go there but once or twice a year now. If by turning hot loads you mean as the plane lands, the next load is waiting for it, then yes, they do, when there's enough jumpers to keep the pilot busy.

I turn my cypres on and don the rig at the DZ. When we arrive at the airport to meet the plane, I tighten the straps on my harness and do all the checks we should be doing.

If I should be doing it differently, enlighten me.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[hookitt 0]

Turn it on where you take off from. Set the adjustment 150 up (or the closest increment up).

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[riggerpaul 1]

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Yes. Skydive The Farm in Rockmart. The DZ, building, swoop ponds and LZs are on private property several miles from the airport, which sits approx. 150 feet higher in elevation for take-offs.

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All jumpers ride the short bus from the DZ to the airport, take off from the airport and land back at the DZ. I don't go there but once or twice a year now. If by turning hot loads you mean as the plane lands, the next load is waiting for it, then yes, they do, when there's enough jumpers to keep the pilot busy.

I turn my cypres on and don the rig at the DZ. When we arrive at the airport to meet the plane, I tighten the straps on my harness and do all the checks we should be doing.

If I should be doing it differently, enlighten me.

That's a great question, and I am sure I don't know the answer.

I have looked at both the Airtec manuals and the Argus manual too and neither seems to address your particular situation.

I have sent an email to Airtec and to the Argus people asking them. I will post when I get a reply.

The manuals clearly address the situation where you turn on the AAD at the airport, and must adjust it to a different landing area altitude.

And they all say that any altitude adjustment must be done at the takeoff location.

But none of the manuals seem to say anything about turning the AAD on at the dz, and going to an airport that is at a different altitude.

As I said, I have sent emails, and I hope we'll get answers soon.

-paul

[BrianM 1]

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I turn my cypres on and don the rig at the DZ.

You should most definitely be turning your AAD on at the airport! I can think of a couple incidents in the last few years where this was a factor - at least one was a fatality. I can't remember if the other one was a fatality, and can't find the thread about it.

Here's the first one: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/98.shtml


Here's what the CYPRES manual says:

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When the airfield and dropzone are in different locations, CYPRES must be switched on at the departure airfield. On return to the airfield from the dropzone it must be re-set before jumping again.

Vigil manual:

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The Vigil® must imperatively be switched ON at ground level of your take-off zone

Argus manual:

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It must be switched on at the takeoff zone only.

There is lots of other important information in those manuals - go read whichever one applies to you from cover to cover.

I said it earlier in this thread, and I'll say it again: Read your manuals! Know how your gear operates! Your life depends on it! (That's aimed at everyone, not just BillyVance).

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[BrianM 1]

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Anyway, I cannot agree that you are changing the activation altitude.

You are changing the landing area altitude, and the activation altitude follows from that.

If you were just changing the activation altitude, the AAD would not be able to shut off properly when you land.

The CYPRES manual says that landing off by more than 30 feet vertically requires resetting the CYPRES. If the offset was set incorrectly by more than 30 feet, obviously that would have the same effect.

It also says that the 1500 foot arming altitude is also relative to the landing area.

Some points I had not considered before - thanks riggerpaul!

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[riggerpaul 1]

I wish that I could still delete or at least edit the post where I told BillyVance that the manuals did not cover where you must turn on the AAD.

I was so intent on looking up the instructions regarding altitude offsets that I entirely missed the sections of the manuals that BrianM has quoted.

THANK YOU BRIAN, VERY GOOD CATCH!!

[hookitt 0]

Billy, I think I read your post wrong.

The landing area is 150 lower than the take off area?

If so, set the AAD 150 Down before you take off.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[rhys 0]

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On a rigger course recently canditates were going to remove an Argus from a Javelin reserve pocket (see DECI recent post) and they broke the Argus cable. As I mentioned it, a parachute system is subject to forces up to 2000 lbs at the opening. That force is spread out into the whole system and a reserve container is not a rigid thing either. Yes strong cables are very welcome. Everything in a parachute system has to be rugged and strong and what is inside of a reserve container is no exception.

Do you work for vigil? you promote them as if you do.

We have 25 tandem rigs at my dropzone, most of them now have vigil2's in them.

A few of them have damaged cables at the point where the cable meets the display unit.

I don't dislike vigils and use them every day that I work.

To say that these cables are stronger and more durable than competing units is false, when vigil2 units that are less than 2 years old are being damaged in exactly the same manner due to the repetative flexing the is expected out or a parachute container.

If you work for them you are lyng to yourself as you would be aware of this problem.

If not you need to be aware of this issue.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[JohnDeere 0]

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Do you work for vigil? you promote them as if you do.

Your not very informed are you? Never mind i know the answer. He does not work for vigil, he just likes vigil, PD, and Vector alot......Maybe you should educate yourself before you go around talking crap.....never mind I know your too good for that...

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[rhys 0]

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Your not very informed are you? Never mind i know the answer. He does not work for vigil, he just likes vigil, PD, and Vector alot......Maybe you should educate yourself before you go around talking crap.....never mind I know your too good for that..

If you define asking questions as 'talking crap', then that is your perogative.

I don't try to know every poster here and have no desire to.

What 'do' you mean by talking crap?

I simply pointed out that we have been experiencing issues with the intregrety of the cables of the vigil units. The same issue multipule times!

The cables have a weakness, yet they are promoted as being super strong?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[JohnDeere 0]

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If you define asking questions as 'talking crap', then that is your perogative.

I don't try to know every poster here and have no desire to.

What 'do' you mean by talking crap?

Talking crap.....As in most of your posting around here!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!