Argus

[koppel 3]

you are now

so how about your thoughts?

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[BillyVance 34]

I had just dropped my rig off at my rigger last Wednesday for a repack. It was determined that my Cypres would expire at the end of August this year (pretty good timing getting one more full repack cycle out of it!).

My rigger told me that some of her colleagues were recommending the Argus. Not just because of the off-the-shelf batteries you could buy for it, but also because you could adjust the altitude parameters you wanted it to be set for. Cypres is already preset and you can't change it, and their batteries are butt-fucking expensive.

So after reading this thread, I think I'm getting an Argus.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[NovaTTT 1]

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Cypres is already preset and you can't change it, and their batteries are butt-fucking expensive.

The Cypres activation altitude can be changed by the user. It has to be done each time the unit is turned on, but it can be changed.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[jurgencamps 0]

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Cypres is already preset and you can't change it, and their batteries are butt-fucking expensive.

The Cypres activation altitude can be changed by the user. It has to be done each time the unit is turned on, but it can be changed.

Euh, after each jump. But you are right, it has to be done when you switch it on. If you make 6 jumps that day in the same conditions, you have to switch it off, on, set the altitude 6 times.

[erdnarob 1]

By setting the altitude I guess you mean changing the modes (student, Pro or tandem) you can do it on an Argus but the Vigil has the same features and on both those devices your choice stays on the display while switched on. If you are speaking about altitude corrections (when jumping at DZ of different elevation (ASL) than the runway), all AAD's have that feature and you can do it yourself for any brand but be careful to do it properly. Always figure out that the place you land is the zero ground reference since your altimeter has to indicate zero when you land. Therefore for instance if the runway is lower by 400 ft than the landing site, have a setting of minus 400 ft. Same for your altimeter; when the airplane will reach the landing site altitude, your altimeter will indicate zero, it that makes sense ? If the runway is higher than the landing site by 400 ft, the setting will be, +400 ft. Always think in order to have your altimeter reading zero when landing, same for the AAD.
Now, the AAD champion of energy saving is certainly the Vigil II. Its batteries last 2000 jumps or 5-7 years. And with the Vigil II YOU decide when sending it back for maintenance if needed.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[erdnarob 1]

Being used to machine shops and machining (lathe, milling machine...etc), I can tell that having an original solid bloc of aluminum is meaningless for sturdiness if you drill holes which just leave a tiny wall between the outside surface and the inside of the holes. I think the main reason to use a solid block of aluminum is very simple, it's cheaper than molded aluminum. Again the high pressure molded aluminum Vigil uses makes a box more sturdy. And this is possibly the reason why the Vigil has a weight higher than its two competitors (batteries lasting way longer) is another factor for more weight while the volume is still very small.
Now on some posts, it is said that the plastic boxes breaks sometimes. Whatever are the circumstances if the heart of an expensive and delicate electronic device get broken, it's not a very good sign. And I never heard about skydivers throwing their AAD on a hard ground.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[BrianM 1]

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be careful to do it properly. Always figure out that the place you land is the zero ground reference since your altimeter has to indicate zero when you land. Therefore for instance if the runway is lower by 400 ft than the landing site, have a setting of minus 400 ft. Same for your altimeter; when the airplane will reach the landing site altitude, your altimeter will indicate zero, it that makes sense ? If the runway is higher than the landing site by 400 ft, the setting will be, +400 ft. Always think in order to have your altimeter reading zero when landing, same for the AAD.

This is INCORRECT!!! I just looked at the manual for the Vigil, CYPRES, and Argus, and all of them do it opposite to how you describe!

If anyone reading this needs to use this feature, don't take my word for it either - read your manual! Don't learn how to operate life saving equipment from an internet forum!

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[monkycndo 0]

Having jumped at a DZ where the remote landing area was at a different elevation above the airport, I have altitude adjusted my AAD many times. The AAD calibrates at take off elevation. So you set (+) for landing area above airport and (-) for landing area below airport.

And yes, RTFM. Going the wrong way will either give you a possible two out or a too late activation.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[BrianM 1]

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Having jumped at a DZ where the remote landing area was at a different elevation above the airport, I have altitude adjusted my AAD many times.

Me too - my home DZ for the last 14 years.

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So you set (+) for landing area above airport and (-) for landing area below airport.

That's what I was saying. The post I was replying had it the other way around.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[Cambalectri 0]

Both the Vigil and the Argus has similar modes, as you mentioned, in your post, however, the Argus has one extra mode, the Swoop mode.
Concerning the battery, the Vigil2 uses a battery from Tadiran Lithium battery GmbH, from Germany, formely Sonnenschein Lithium. I'm not certain about the Vigil2 being the champion of '' energy saving '' however, the Vigil battery will last a long time, mainly because it's a high energy cell, but also adding extra weight to the unit. Yet, I am in agreement, it's a nice choice to power the Vigil2.

[timmyfitz 0]

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Always figure out that the place you land is the zero ground reference since your altimeter has to indicate zero when you land. Therefore for instance if the runway is lower by 400 ft than the landing site, have a setting of minus 400 ft. Same for your altimeter; when the airplane will reach the landing site altitude, your altimeter will indicate zero, it that makes sense ?

If your landing area is 400 feet lower than from where you takeoff, then you need to adjust your analog altimeter +400, not -400.

If you set your analog altimeter to -400 feet and then walk to the LOWER landing area, it will now read -800.

[erdnarob 1]

Thanks for catching my attention to the altitude correction issue.

On an altimeter, when the landing zone is 400 ft higher ASL than the runway where you take off, you set up your altimeter at minus 400 ft where you take off (set up the needle at -400 ft). That way when you will land on the landing zone your altimeter will indicate zero, are you with me ?

Now for an AAD. I read what is written on the Cypres manual and you are right. That means if the DZ is 300 ft above the airfield (where you take off), a + 300 ft correction will make the device to be zero at the DZ. The only way I understand this one is that when setting up your Cypres at + 300, you actually tell the AAD that you want it to operate like being 300 ft higher than where it calibrates (the take off area). This is the contrary of what we do for an altimeter (very confusing) indeed. I will come back on that.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[erdnarob 1]

Read again carefully my post about analog altimeter setting. We are saying the same thing. For analog altimeter:

I said airport lower than DZ is a MINUS correction when set up at the airport.
You said DZ lower than airport is a PLUS correction when set up at the airport

This is the same

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[BrianM 1]

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On an altimeter, when the landing zone is 400 ft higher ASL than the runway where you take off, you set up your altimeter at minus 400 ft where you take off (set up the needle at -400 ft). That way when you will land on the landing zone your altimeter will indicate zero, are you with me ?

Yes, I'm with you. You are correct for an altimeter.

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The only way I understand this one is that when setting up your Cypres at + 300, you actually tell the AAD that you want it to operate like being 300 ft higher than where it calibrates (the take off area). This is the contrary of what we do for an altimeter (very confusing) indeed. I will come back on that.

I think of it as adjusting the firing altitude up or down instead of offsetting the zero point. If I'm landing higher, I want it to fire higher. Landing lower, I want it to fire lower. That eliminates the confusion for me.

An altimeter doesn't have a firing altitude, and it makes more sense to adjust the zero point than to try to remember different break-off/pull/hard deck/etc altitudes. That results in the offset being opposite from an AAD.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[BillyVance 34]

As far as I'm concerned, I have to turn my cypres on AT the LZ, if it's not the same altitude as the airport where the load takes off at.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[jurgencamps 0]

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As far as I'm concerned, I have to turn my cypres on AT the LZ, if it's not the same altitude as the airport where the load takes off at.

RTFM
If the airport is lower than the LZ, the Cypres will recalibrate at the lowest point, in this case the airport.
There is a drawing in the cypres manual. For ex. if you take off at a airport at 4000 ft asl, do a lowpass at a field at 3500 ft asl and jump at a dz at 4240 ft asl, your cypres will fire at 10 ft above the dz.
Two german skydivers were killed when they lost altitude awareness a few years ago just in a similar situation. The plane took off at DZ A, did a low pass at DZ B (lower) and they jumped at DZ C (higher). They even had set the correct altitude offset.

http://www.cypres.cc/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=89&func=startdown&id=11&lang=en see pg 32

[piisfish 135]

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As far as I'm concerned, I have to turn my cypres on AT the LZ, if it's not the same altitude as the airport where the load takes off at.

as written by Jurgen, this is VERY wrong.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[riggerpaul 1]

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As far as I'm concerned, I have to turn my cypres on AT the LZ, if it's not the same altitude as the airport where the load takes off at.

as written by Jurgen, this is VERY wrong.

I have always found the manual a bit confusing on some of these issues.

I have written an email to Airtec to see if they can clarify things.

I will post their answers when/if I get a response.

-paul

[BillyVance 34]

Thanks, I had no idea.

I don't think I know of any places that this scenario could happen at, especially at any DZ in the southeast US.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[dragon2 0]

The stories I've heard about mistakes with AADs happened mostly with non-standard flights, like taking the DZ plane to a boogie, jump-in, competition somewhere else you plan to jump. A low pass over a river when you already took the plane above 1500ft, the German accident, etc. I think it's a very good idea if you're at least aware of this, even when you're in flat country like The Netherlands where you generally don't have to worry about DZs offsets, you could still make potentially fatal mistakes here.

Also interesting on longer flights is when the pilot holds the altitude steady for a long time - depending on which brand you have your digital alti/beeper/AAD could now decide that altitude is 0 Happened on a demo jump here when the pilot was told to fly his small cessna over Schiphol Airport at 1000ft, well, he did. The 3 neptunes in the plane all decided 1000ft was 0 ft after 20 minutes or so

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Cambalectri 0]

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Being used to machine shops and machining (lathe, milling machine...etc), I can tell that having an original solid bloc of aluminum is meaningless for sturdiness if you drill holes which just leave a tiny wall between the outside surface and the inside of the holes. I think the main reason to use a solid block of aluminum is very simple, it's cheaper than molded aluminum. Again the high pressure molded aluminum Vigil uses makes a box more sturdy. And this is possibly the reason why the Vigil has a weight higher than its two competitors (batteries lasting way longer) is another factor for more weight while the volume is still very small.
Now on some posts, it is said that the plastic boxes breaks sometimes. Whatever are the circumstances if the heart of an expensive and delicate electronic device get broken, it's not a very good sign. And I never heard about skydivers throwing their AAD on a hard ground.

I'm uncertain why we are having a discussion in relation to the strength of various AAD's casings, since I believe, there are no serious issues which were presented on this forum.
However, concerning your aboved statement, in reference to the Argus unit, I still believe a solid block of metal is stronger than your typical straight wall design box, mainly because when you bore into the metal, the inner wall and outside walls of the casing becomes arch-shaped or vaulted, adding significant strength to the case.
And, should it be true that an AAD made from a solid block of metal is cheaper to make, than a molded design type, then, lets hopes the savings are passed to the Argus byers.

On a similar note, the Vigil2 is 40% thinner that the Vigil1 ; surely also, still strong enough not to put in peril the various components inside the unit.
I agree that the Vigil2 with its German Tadiran lithium battery lasts a long time but as you said, adding extra weight of the Vigil2.
Regarding the Airtec Cypres, which I still have,
at this time, I have no issues with the casing...modern plastics are everywhere, very light yet, certainly very strong.


***

[BillyVance 34]

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Also interesting on longer flights is when the pilot holds the altitude steady for a long time - depending on which brand you have your digital alti/beeper/AAD could now decide that altitude is 0 Happened on a demo jump here when the pilot was told to fly his small cessna over Schiphol Airport at 1000ft, well, he did. The 3 neptunes in the plane all decided 1000ft was 0 ft after 20 minutes or so

Interesting... I wonder how close a bunch of us came to having something like this happen on the last 100 way attempt at Cross Keys during their state record event in 1998? We got to altitude, then had to make a really, really long go-around for some reason that I can't recall. Several jumpers got a bit hypoxic, and I broke my arm going out the Otter when I stumbled and got pushed into the door frame. The base fucked the exit anyway so the jump never got close to completion.

And the maddening thing about that was we were just one person away from completing a new state record on the previous jump because the idiot got lost and couldn't find his slot.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[JohanW 0]

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Also interesting on longer flights is when the pilot holds the altitude steady for a long time - depending on which brand you have your digital alti/beeper/AAD could now decide that altitude is 0 Happened on a demo jump here when the pilot was told to fly his small cessna over Schiphol Airport at 1000ft, well, he did. The 3 neptunes in the plane all decided 1000ft was 0 ft after 20 minutes or so

This is why you can tell your Neptune "I'm on a jump" presumably? For demos, I tend to do just that. (If I remember correctly, you taught me that.
ISTR an incident in 1998 (?), WAG Turkey, Danish team, sponsored by L&B with prototype ProDytters, who had a ~1 hour holding, then continued to jump, only to happily continue turning points to Cypres activation altitude. So the Cypres 1 would seem unaffected for quite a while, and yes, the ProDytter firmware was modified for production units.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[erdnarob 1]

I have checked with manufacturers and you are right concerning the altitude correction for AAD. I never had the chance to use an altitude correction and always thought that the setting was similar to the analog altimeter. Even if the pamphlets about altimeter and AAD setting for altitude corrections ask to read the AAD user's manual, I think it is important to point out that this setting is the reverse of what we do for an analog altimeter. Very disturbing indeed and you can make sure I will speak about it at the next safety day. I am sure that a lot of people ignore that fact which is rarely discussed. On the license exam, there is some questions about the analog altimeter altitude corrections but I never heard people discussing the same subject for AAD. Thanks a lot. We learn more every day.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[BrianM 1]

Andre,

Great idea to discuss it at safety day.

My home DZ has a landing area off the DZ, we have a sign telling jumpers what their AAD should be set to. Still find lots of visiting jumpers who don't know how to set it, though.

By the way, this isn't an analog vs digital issue - you would offset an analog FXC 12000 the same way as a CYPRES/Vigil/Argus.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg