180 Day Repack

[billvon 2,396]

>I am "exposed" for 180 days instead of 120.

If you have a customer that you repack regularly, you are exposed for 365 days a year no matter what the repack cycle is.

>The risk of something going arye with the rig goes up since it is used
>longer between pack cycles.

Probably true. However, again, there's no additional work to be done - and a rigger that simply wants to get paid for his work (rather than his exposure) will likely end up charging the same and thus attract more business.

[masterrigger1 2]

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>I am "exposed" for 180 days instead of 120.

If you have a customer that you repack regularly, you are exposed for 365 days a year no matter what the repack cycle is.

But at a lesser amount to the rigger involved.

Quote

>The risk of something going arye with the rig goes up since it is used
>longer between pack cycles.

Probably true. However, again, there's no additional work to be done - and a rigger that simply wants to get paid for his work (rather than his exposure) will likely end up charging the same and thus attract more business.

Absolutely true!

It just boils down to charging for:

1. The work

2.The liability or "exposure'

3. Or both

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[vixsal 0]

The 180 day repack cycle will not cause my prices to increase.

Vic

[rehmwa 2]

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>If you have a customer that you repack regularly, you are exposed for 365 days a year no matter what the repack cycle is..

I think his point is that he inspects the rig less, so when something wears out or goes bad (through no fault of his own), he has less opportunity to find it and correct it.

applies to the casual skydiver customer that doesn't check his own rig regularly.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,396]

>applies to the casual skydiver customer that doesn't check his own rig regularly.

Actually, I'm less worried about the guy who makes 40 jumps between inspections than the guy who makes 600. First off, he's guaranteed to exceed the limits on some of his gear (like the 500 jump limit on the cypres 1 batteries.) Secondly, he's generally going to be the guy who never packs (or even really looks at) his gear, just grabs it from the packer as he drops his old one off. Or perhaps just as bad, packs in a tearing hurry while simultaneously debriefing a student and trying to drink a Gatorade so he can make the next student load.

In addition, these two groups of people are not likely to have a lot of money to replace gear, and (per my observations) are more likely to think "yeah, that's worn, but it's fine for another 100 jumps."

One argument _against_ the 180 day cycle is that it's possible to wear stuff out in that time. That's certainly true on mains; you can go from a thin spot on a slider grommet to a broken line and chewed up riser within 100 jumps, never mind 600. It is, fortunately, less true with reserves and harnesses, since reserves are protected and harnesses are more rugged than mains. Still, if there's going to be someone who wears stuff out in 180 days, it's going to tend to be the guy on the sponsored team who can afford to make 1000 jumps a year or the instructor who is making 800 jumps a year because he needs the money.

[klingeme 0]

If they are less comfortable with the 180 day repack cycle, they are welcome to have them repacked every 120 days, or every 60 days, or every Monday after a long weekend of jumping. the 180 is the max, but you are not "required" to wait that long.

If they do more than 500 jumps on a cypres battery, you are no longer liable as they willingly and knowingly disregarded manufacturer's requirements.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[Hausse 0]

As far as I am aware of it, the packing cycle in Switzerland is 360 days (please correct me if I'm wrong) and I have not heard of any problems like that while I was over here.

[MajorDad 0]

[reply (....snip) It just boils down to charging for:

1. The work

2.The liability or "exposure'

3. Or both

BS,
MEL

[billvon 2,396]

> If they are less comfortable with the 180 day repack cycle, they
>are welcome to have them repacked every 120 days, or every 60 days, or
>every Monday after a long weekend of jumping. the 180 is the max, but
>you are not "required" to wait that long.

Right. The problem is that the jumpers who make 600 jumps in 180 days are often the jumpers who would never maintain their gear at all if they didn't have to; they rarely pack it (and so don't see problems developing) and they often get semi-regular replacements, so periodic maintenance often gets ovelooked.

A scheme where a rigger could, based on the expected usage of the gear, sign it off for 120 days (as opposed to 180) might help there, but I don't believe the system will work like that. I still haven't seen the final rule.

>If they do more than 500 jumps on a cypres battery, you are no longer
> liable as they willingly and knowingly disregarded manufacturer's
>requirements.

Ah, but how do _you_ know? Example -

They get a brand new cypres. You pack it up for them. They come back in 6 months.

"How many jumps did you make on it?" you ask them.

"Oh, I don't know. 500? 600? Something like that. Maybe less."

Is it legal to repack the rig with that cypres?

[icevideot 0]

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One argument _against_ the 180 day cycle is that it's possible to wear stuff out in that time. That's certainly true on mains;

I am going to pay whatever it costs to get my reserve packed. That being said my rigger doesn't inspect my main. I do that myself and tend to keep it with me when I drop off my rig to be repacked.

All that really leaves to wear in between is the harness and container right?

I have been teetering on the brink of getting my own ticket anyway. I prices get high enough that would be incentive right?

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[NickDG 23]

There's an albeit small, but worthy and not often considered drawback of becoming a rigger just to pack your own gear. It sometimes, depending on where you are located, and who you know, puts you way outside the mainstream rigger information loop.

From time to time certain practices come and go from vogue, certain materials like line and fabric get a hint of taint attached to them but not yet enough for some general announcement. Some piece of hardware may bear watching because a few riggers noticed something not previously encountered but you never hear about it.

These are all things you can be blissfully ignorant of if not connected into the rigger grapevine. Plus working in an actual loft, seeing and packing more than just a few systems a week, trading tips and tricks with other riggers tunes you into things you might miss just doing one rig, your own, every six months. You'll know your own rig well enough to focus in on that one wear spot while missing something else. It's not having the discipline to look at your own rig with fresh eyes, to inspect it like you never laid eyes on it before.

Rigs, these days, are indeed a bit more complicated than they used to be. So would you take your system to a rigger you know only does two repacks a year? And even long time very experienced riggers sometimes need to reach out, to pull out that little black book of phone numbers and instinctively know which dialed number will yield the best and most reliable answers. And while any rigger, or even any jumper, can call the manufacturer sometimes the answer you get is sometimes shaded, frankness wise, by if they know you or not.

Then after a few I&Rs on your own gear that don't explode in the container, the temptation, no matter how much you resist it, is to do one for your buddy and there's that can of worms. So pay the hundred bucks a year to the busiest most experienced rigger you can find and go blow that ratings money burning a hole in your pocket on something way more fun like flying lessons . . .

NickD

[pchapman 261]

My experience in Canada was that repack rates didn't really change when we went from 120 to 180.

Perhaps a rigger might have decided that it was a good time to bump his rates up by $5 in any case, but generally the longer repack cycle was a non-issue. (Individual results may of course vary - as seen by one previous post from a Canadian)

[icevideot 0]

This sounds like solid advice.

Thanks

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[fugozzie 0]

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The 180 day repack cycle will not cause my prices to increase.

Vic

Ditto, but the price of gas will ;)

[billvon 2,396]

>If they do more than 500 jumps on a cypres battery, you are no
>longer liable as they willingly and knowingly disregarded manufacturer's
>requirements.

Agreed.

But now, after those 500 jumps, they take it back to your loft. They tell you they think they put more than 500 jumps on it. The Cypres is still in-date otherwise.

Is it OK for you to repack it, knowing that the cypres may have _already_ exceeded its jump number limit?

[virgin-burner 1]

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As far as I am aware of it, the packing cycle in Switzerland is 360 days (please correct me if I'm wrong) and I have not heard of any problems like that while I was over here.

its 365 days actually..

i got a repack on march 21st this year, and will have my next done before or on march 21st 2009..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[klingeme 0]

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>If they do more than 500 jumps on a cypres battery, you are no
>longer liable as they willingly and knowingly disregarded manufacturer's
>requirements.

Agreed.

But now, after those 500 jumps, they take it back to your loft. They tell you they think they put more than 500 jumps on it. The Cypres is still in-date otherwise.

Is it OK for you to repack it, knowing that the cypres may have _already_ exceeded its jump number limit?

I'm not a rigger, but if the manufacturer says it is no good after 500 jumps for batteries (like they say it is no good after 2 years for batteries, or 12 years, for whatever reason they made that rule), and you as a rigger pack it what is the difference between the 3? Would you as a rigger pack a 13 year old cypress with 3 year old batteries? Then why would you pack one with more than the allowed number of jumps?

Mark Klingelhoefer

[billvon 2,396]

>Then why would you pack one with more than the allowed number of jumps?

That's the question.

You could take the position "I will not repack a rig with over 500 jumps on a cypres unless the batteries are changed." But how would such a conversation go?

"How many jumps did you make on the rig since it was last repacked?"
"Oh, I don't know. Maybe 400. Maybe 500."
"Well, if it's 500, then you have to get new batteries before I repack it. You can get them from Paragear."
"Oh. In that case it's 400."

The issue is that there is no reliably way to determine how many jumps an AAD has on it.

[klingeme 0]

If you "lose" your packing data card, you can not tell when the batteries were last replaced. Do you force someone the get new batteries when the lose them? You have not proof when they were last replaced.

If the limit is 500 jumps on a battery, would you pack it if they said "I have exactly 497 jumps on it."?

If they made 400 jumps on it in 120 days, is it safe for you to assume they will make more then 100 in the next 120 days? Is that acceptable with the AAD Manufacturer?

Again, I am not a rigger and honestly do not know the answer to these questions. I'm just trying to get the answer to yours.

[rehmwa 2]

I think it's cool that if it times out in Nov, it's very likely I'll have a rig that's out of date for a week or two, and then, without doing anything, it'll be back in date for another 4-6 weeks.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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If you "lose" your packing data card, you can not tell when the batteries were last replaced.

Until you repack the rig, look at the sticker on the Cypres battery compartment, and note that the batteries are expired after which you don't finish packing and sealing.

[erdnarob 1]

<< "How many jumps did you make on the rig since it was last repacked?"
"Oh, I don't know. Maybe 400. Maybe 500." >>

I just would like to remind you all that if the rig owner is Vigil equiped, the rigger can read the total of jumps made on INFO TJ = Total of Jumps) on the Vigil menu and register it until the next repack then compare with the new figure.

I read most of you, and again I say the rigger's job is not praised enough. We riggers are not special packers, we are much more than that, we are knowledgeable about the rigging, material used, stitching, construction method, technical or service bulletin published, we know the way to inspect: a canopy, a harness and container and we are able to do repair at the level of our expertise and we are able to make a preventative inspection and spot the part of the rig to be replaced soon...etc
When you see a doctor for a check up, healthy or not you pay the full price. A 180 or 120 days repack shouldn't make a difference. But again I come back with the responsibilities. We are not paid enough because of that. It takes two hours to inspect and repack a reserve. An experienced packer at 6$ /pack can make 15 packings in two hours = 90$. Should we ask 90$ for a reserve packing plus a fee to cover a rigger's insurance cost...? And a tandem master can make 4 jumps in two hours and get 25-35$ per jump which makes 100-140$ in two hours!!!

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[billvon 2,396]

> If you "lose" your packing data card, you can not tell when the batteries were last replaced.

Well, you can always look at the sticker on the unit or the little checklist thing inside.

>If the limit is 500 jumps on a battery, would you pack it if they said "I
>have exactly 497 jumps on it."?

That's the question. I am of the opinion that it's entirely up to the jumper to ensure that the 500 jump limit is not exceeded, but it's a gray area.

[erdnarob 1]

In commercial airplanes maintenance there is a thing named the Progressive program which allow the airplane owner to have the maintenance done withing 10 hours of flying. EG. A Cessna 172 has to be inspected every 50 hours. As the owner, you can go before the 50 hours like at 45 hours or after at 57 hours. Those time allowances are however not cumulative. I believe that such a margin of time and jumps should exist for the AADs.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.