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maLUCo

CYPRES vs. VIGIL I do not which one to choose ...

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I'm wondering if a 20 year life to the Vigil will really be all that necessary. The sport has made a lot of gear advancements since 1988 and to be honest, I don't really want to be up in the air freeflying with gear that old given the standard and advancement of new equipment available today. Definitely don't want an FXC, thought at its time, I'm sure it was a neat thing to have.

So buying a Vigil now or within the next couple of years and hanging on to it for 20 years... How long before you look at the Vigil as stone aged technology compared to what's new? The day will come where my super cool gear is just plain "old school" and people will say, "I would never jump a death trap like that".
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Many years ago?
Last year, freeflyer, AAD was not switched on (due to an error when the owner wanted to switch it on, and decided to jump it anyway) but fired at 9000 ft.
Mmm, not switched on and still fired? Bad luck, it never reached it 4 year inspection



Yup, that's very scary. And thats why all the manufacturers will tell you not to jump a unit that does not pass the self test at startup. A blank screen doesn't necessarily mean the unit is shut off. That's a downside to jumping with an electronic AAD in general.

Since airtec just recalled a bunch of cypreses, i think it's hard to say that they just wait till they see the units for a 4-year inspection before they fix them. They seemed to handle the recall well.

But don't get me wrong... I'm not a devoted airtec fan. Not suggesting that they're perfect either.

Dave

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>Last year, freeflyer, AAD was not switched on (due to an error when
>the owner wanted to switch it on, and decided to jump it anyway) but fired
>at 9000 ft.

Yikes. Airtec specifically warns you not to jump a rig with a malfunctioning cypres. Once you know any AAD is malfunctioning, it's probably a good idea not to jump it. Keep in mind that modern AAD's do not have power switches (with the exception of the Astra, which few people use) and thus are not guaranteed to be off just because the display is blank. This is especially true if an error has been detected.

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Can someone clarify something for me? You guys mentioned that in Thailand the Vigils fired and the Cypresses shut down.

Question one

How did the Cypresses get reset for use? Did the jumpers reset them, did a technician do it onsite, did they have to be sent to the factory, or were they junked?


Question two

How did the Cypress owners know that they're units had malfunctioned? - If the Vigils had NOT fired, how would they cypress owners have known they were about to jump a malfunctioning/ shut down unit? With my rig setup, (and many others) it can be quite difficult for someone to see the display and it is not part of my normal pre-jumprun prep check on the plane. If the Cypress units locked up/shut down with no obvious warning to the jumpers, that scares the shit out of me. Especially on a big way.

Anyone have any info?
I will be kissing hands and shaking babies all afternoon. Thanks for all your support! *bows*

SCS #8251

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>How did the Cypresses get reset for use? Did the jumpers reset them,
>did a technician do it onsite, did they have to be sent to the factory, or
>were they junked?

The Cypres 1's shut down more or less permanently. Airtec flew replacements out for the next day.

The Cypres 2's shut down and were able to be turned back on the next day.

>How did the Cypress owners know that they're units had malfunctioned?

The display had shut off.

>If the Cypress units locked up/shut down with no obvious warning to
>the jumpers, that scares the shit out of me. Especially on a big way.

Your AAD can shut down at any time due to a number of factors. In the case of the Cypres, a self test failure will cause a shutdown to prevent a misfire. In the case of other AAD's, any of a dozen failures (including battery failure or cable failure) can cause a shutdown.

Making a jump on a bigway without an AAD doesn't worry me. Having a reserve deploy beneath me on an approach does scare me - which is why I prefer AAD's that default to not firing when they are confused.

If the idea of doing a bigway without an AAD scares the shit out of you, you should not be doing bigways. (IMO of course.)

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Great info! I appreciate your response. Now I've got a lot more info about how the various AAD's responded in that particular situation.

You're right about the bigway part. I've only done 111 jumps in 9 months, and I'm not cocky enough to think I have the skills to fly with hundreds of other jumpers. I think I'm a competent flier for my time in the sport, but at this point I would certainly appreciate having a functioning AAD on any large formation. 25 people on a bigway I can handle comfortably, 300 I cannot. I'm sure with time and experience my comfort level will expand.

I guess my concern was that if any conditions did occur where someone is rendered unconsious (which would appear to be more likely on a big way), it would be good to know that their AAD (if they have one), is in working order. There's always the chance no one would have noticed the Cypresses turn off if the Vigils hadn't fired. I can certainly see your argument about misfirings, though. Now, I've got a few more factors to mull over in my head before the next time I jump.

Thanks again for the response.
I will be kissing hands and shaking babies all afternoon. Thanks for all your support! *bows*

SCS #8251

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Last year, freeflyer, AAD was not switched on (due to an error when the owner wanted to switch it on, and decided to jump it anyway) but fired at 9000 ft.
Mmm, not switched on and still fired? Bad luck, it never reached it 4 year inspection. :S



Re-phrased.
Last year, freeflyer. AAD failed self-test, including display failure. He decided to jump it anyhow, assuming the blank screen meant it was off. This decision to jump an armed and malfunctioning AAD resulted in a misfire at 9000 feet. The lesson learned is don't jump with an AAD that has failed its self-test.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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I guess my concern was that if any conditions did occur where someone is rendered unconsious (which would appear to be more likely on a big way), it would be good to know that their AAD (if they have one), is in working order.



About 2 years ago a well skydiver, 2 times world champion, was involved in a freefall collision during a big way. While not knocked out he was injured enough that he could not pull his reserve. His AAD fired and his reserve deployed. The brand of AAD he was wearing was an FXC Astra.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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>I would certainly appreciate having a functioning AAD on any large formation.

So do I, and I have used an AAD on all the 100+ bigways that I've done - but if it had failed I would have continued jumping. The important part of the decision, I think, is to never make a jump with an AAD that you would not make without one.

As a side note, in general the 100+ ways I have been on have been considerably safer than some of the pickup 20-ways I've been on. With that many people, careful design and adherence to a breakoff (and landing) plan is critical.

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Last year, freeflyer, AAD was not switched on (due to an error when the owner wanted to switch it on, and decided to jump it anyway) but fired at 9000 ft.
Mmm, not switched on and still fired? Bad luck, it never reached it 4 year inspection. :S



Re-phrased.
Last year, freeflyer. AAD failed self-test, including display failure. He decided to jump it anyhow, assuming the blank screen meant it was off. This decision to jump an armed and malfunctioning AAD resulted in a misfire at 9000 feet. The lesson learned is don't jump with an AAD that has failed its self-test.

Blues,
Dave



I know, you know, (now after the incident) but see cypres manual, Pg 19)
Quote

Any functional defect will also cause CYPRES to abort the self-test and display a number
for approx. two seconds before switching itself off.



I think that lot's of jumpers, me included, thought that this kind of freak incident was impossible.

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>I think that lot's of jumpers, me included, thought that this kind
>of freak incident was impossible.

As an engineer who designs things like this, I can tell you with some certainty that a blank display means:

1) the unit has turned itself off completely, or
2) something is broken and the display is off.

It's like an audible's failure mode. What does a completely dead audible sound like?

I would also add that Willy Boeykens had a premature firing from a Vigil he thought was turned off during WT06. When he talked about it later, it was unclear whether he had inadvertently turned it back on; I never heard the final resolution on that.

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Suggest that your calculate LIFETIME costs for each. With Cypres lifetime at ~12yr, and Vigil at 20yr; and the Vigil new 10 battery life statement... I think you will see a BIG difference in annual cost over the lifetime of these devices.
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

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ust by installing it in the rig given the flimsy cables).



Vigil has problems with its cables too (not able to handle simple movements)

There was a service bulletin about that

Pete:(



Do you have a link?

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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For those who argue that your AAD is obsolete by 20 years and 12 years is an acceptable lifespan how many people do you know who have retired their cypres because it reached it's EOL?

I jumped a cypres equipped rig last year that the cypres expired on at the end of the season. As a student I also jumped an FXC-12000. Having a fairly indepth mechanical and computer engineering background neither made me worry about a malfunctioning unit.

-Michael

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AFAIK that vigil WAS turned back on: "wait let me make sure I turned it off" - this from the jumper behind him who had never seen a vigil before and had been at altitude way too long :S People were fuzzy that descent, how about Henny who grabbed the Argus he was test-jumping out of the backpocket in his rig and showed it to another jumper - "there, it's off now" "But but but you're not supposed to rip your AAD out like that you just have to turn it OFF!!!!!!" :S:D:D:D


I also had a black display on my first Argus. Turned on AAD, put rig on, jumped. For 2nd jump, got boarding call, grabbed packed rig, glanced at AAD, WAIT, I did turn it on this morning, right?!?! Turned it on, self test, off again. WTF? Again, same result. Screw that I grabbed a staff rig and made the jump.

This was an Argus I got for free at our Nationals a year before, one of the earlier units, I had to promise the unit would be returned because they want to look at wingsuit jumps. There was a timer built-in for a year, "it went off" a little early so the unit really was turned off luckily for me that first jump. Argus covered my repack and sent me another unit quickly, it was an inconvenience though since I needed 2 rigs that weekend and already had to borrow one, now two. Since then I watch the self test with a lot more interest than I did before :S

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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For those who argue that your AAD is obsolete by 20 years and 12 years is an acceptable lifespan how many people do you know who have retired their cypres because it reached it's EOL?



Normally everybody, because you are not allowed to use it anymore. Your rigger (yes for those people like me who are not a rigger) can not repack your reserve with such an AAD.
There are other threads about this specific subject.

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Its from October 2006

French Parachute Federation Service bulletin CS 120

- the cable of the control unit of Vigil 1 does not resist unusual movement (translation)

- que le câble de l’unité de contrôle du Vigil 1 ne résiste pas à des efforts inhabituels (original)

Pete



[:/]

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> AFAIK that vigil WAS turned back on . . .

I heard both stories; never heard a final resolution to it. Willy seemed pretty sure it was off.



Well Willy + any brand AAD + Thailand isn't a very good combination anyway :P

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Suggest that your calculate LIFETIME costs for each. With Cypres lifetime at ~12yr, and Vigil at 20yr; and the Vigil new 10 battery life statement... I think you will see a BIG difference in annual cost over the lifetime of these devices.



as always, if it pans out. You know the cost of the C2, but you can only attempt to predict it for the Vigil. If it doesn't require maintenence, and if the battery lasts as long as promised (no battery cost on the C2), and if manages to have a 20 year service life without being banned by the French...It could be a big difference, or it could be a wash.

If they keep coming out with Vigil2s and then 3s, what does that do to the resale value of a Vigil?

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