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maLUCo

CYPRES vs. VIGIL I do not which one to choose ...

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>I just don't see this as all that different from characteristic of a
>(student) Cypres were it will fire in a descending plane.

I agree, which is why I don't use a student cypres and I don't like equipping students with them.

>It's unbalanced for people pillage the Vigil while giving carte blanche to the Cypres.

Pillage the Vigil? You mean, like diss it? I don't think anyone is doing that. I have no problem with it, and would happily use it for 95% of my skydiving. In a jet or a C-130 I'd just prefer to have a Cypres. (A Cypres 2 Expert, to be specific, not a student version.)

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Hackhish said it all. How easy to make sure an AAD will not fire at the ground that programing it to arm itself only at 1500 feet. Billvon, in case of emergency at 1400 feet (we know that a lot of aircraft problems occur at or right after the take off), on the rush to get out of the airplane you hit your head and become unconscious, with a Cypres YOUR ARE DEAD MEAT. With a Vigil which gets armed at 150 feet above the ground you have way more chance to survive. Vigil I simply had a different approach about where to put its priority. Now what do you prefer, having a firing when the airplane is on the ground or having no AAD protection when bailing out at 1400 or lower????? Anyway, in both cases those 2 situations do not happen very often but with a Cypres you have no protection below 1500 feet and with the Vigil your are due for a new cutter and and a repack.

And for Billvon, with Vigil II in case of a very sudden important rate of pressure (higher than a speed equivalent of 253 MPH) it will not fire. Vigil did its homework.

If you talk with system engineers, they will tell you that no system is perfect. Vigil and Cypres have just a different philosophy. Getting a firing in the airplane on the ground is not fun but the Vigil I did its job as designed. You will never be protected from all situations.
Now, how many of you got an AAD firing? I got two and that is why I can talk especially after having downloaded each time the data. There is an important difference between what you whish the reality is and what the reality is actually. I am talking about real things which really happened to me. That's why I can say my AAD did its job because it actually did. Do you know if your AAD works? We just wish it will but most of you don't actually know it will.
I forgot one point. If you do pond swooping and get wet, with a Vigil II you just hang it up and let the filter dry. With a Cypres getting wet you have to get the filter changed.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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Billvon, in the Vigil II manual page 20 you can read : << Vigil will work correctly even when in a pressurized cabin as long as the pressure differs at least + or - 5 hPa compared to the atmospheric air pressure at take off >>
Note: 5 hPa or 5 hecto Pascal is equivalent to about a change of altitude of 150 feet.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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>Billvon, in case of emergency at 1400 feet (we know that a lot of
> aircraft problems occur at or right after the take off), on the rush to get
>out of the airplane you hit your head and become unconscious, with a
>Cypres YOUR ARE DEAD MEAT.

Agreed.

Now, if you are in an open-door Cessna, and you have an engine failure at 1000 feet, your Vigil might just fire during the resulting emergency descent and KILL EVERYONE IN THE AIRPLANE. (Caps added for parallel construction.)

Of course, neither event has ever happened, so I'm not too worried. In general, though, I would prefer my AAD not fire when I don't want it to than fire when I don't want it to.

>Now what do you prefer, having a firing when the airplane is on the
>ground or having no AAD protection when bailing out at 1400 or
>lower?

I'd prefer it to not fire during any emergency descent/exit.

>Now, how many of you got an AAD firing? I got two and that is why I
>can talk . . .

Hmm. That sounds like "I can talk extensively about packing technique because I have a lot of malfunctions!"

For myself, I was on a C-130 that pressurized, and I did NOT have an AAD firing. That's the sort of experience with AAD's I prefer to get.

>Billvon, in the Vigil II manual page 20 you can read : << Vigil will
>work correctly even when in a pressurized cabin as long as the pressure
> differs at least + or - 5 hPa compared to the atmospheric air pressure
> at take off >>

I agree that's what the manual said. I also know that, in the real world, Vigils fire when aircraft spuriously pressurize and Cypres 2's don't.

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>I just don't see this as all that different from characteristic of a
>(student) Cypres were it will fire in a descending plane.

I agree, which is why I don't use a student cypres and I don't like equipping students with them.



Please explain. You should say you dont like pilots that do not know how to desend below X altitude when student is on board. And yes they should know who is a student on plane and/or ask. Or an instructor should let pilot know that student is still on plane. Student cypres does as designed for a resson.
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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>You should say you dont like pilots that do not know how to desend
>below X altitude when student is on board.

?? I don't dislike pilots, and the pilots I have flown with do not descend rapidly when there are students on board. I simply see no reason to take the risk.

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Do you know if your AAD works? We just wish it will but most of you don't actually know it will.



No i do not and i am not trying it out anytime soon. I dont plan on making the mistake of not deploying by the correct alt. so it does not have to do its job.:P But there are enought reported cases of a cypres doing its job that i feel ok with it being a back up;)
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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>You should say you dont like pilots that do not know how to desend
>below X altitude when student is on board.

?? I don't dislike pilots, and the pilots I have flown with do not descend rapidly when there are students on board. I simply see no reason to take the risk.



??? Well evidentlly cypres does not see a reason in making the student cypres peramiters like the pro. And i never said you did not like pilots! Case still being, the reason you say you do not like student cypres's.
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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>Case still being, the reason you say you do not like student cypres's.

I believe a student cypres has as much chance of causing a student problems as it does helping them. Firing a reserve into a spinning malfunction is not always the best thing to do.

At Brown we used all expert cypreses for students, since the function we wanted the AAD to perform was to ensure a reserve firing if a student had nothing out and was still in freefall at 800 feet.

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Dave,

All I gotta say is that I am pretty sure that Airtec had plenty of misfires in the air, under canopy as well as on the ground that they never let the public know about. I am not saying that they did but if you look throughout the history of businesses there were plenty of companies that never released all the information about what had happened during the beginning stages of their products when they released them.

Airtec has more reliability due to the fact that they have been on the market the longest that is all. Both companies have had legitimate saves but they have also both had misfire and continue to do so. I mean Airtec just had a recall on some of their models.

IMHO both are credible companies so it ultimately falls down to personal choice and what you are looking for. But in the end both of them are still peices of electronic equipment and are capable of failing at a moments notice.

So ultimately it falls down to this simple saying.


CAVEAT EMPTOR- Let the Buyer Beware
EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

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Well, I don't disagree with you completely. Cypres has had misfires... mostly many years ago and the problems were fixed. They had a recall recently... our DZ had a few tandem cypreses affected that had to be fixed. Neither company makes a perfect product. But here's the thing... we got our cypreses fixed when there was no misfire... and got loaner units to use while they were being fixed. We got no explanation from AAD when we had a real live misfire (tandem under canopy) with a vigil. They came out with some press releases soon afterward and then quietly released the vigil 2.

I don't have any agenda... I don't care if someone buys a vigil or a cypres or an argus. I agree that the buyer should beware. And when I see people saying how great the vigil is because it even fires on the ground, I just like to point out that that person might just be a tad biased toward it.

So serious question to anyone that knows the answer... AAD says in a press release: "If Vigil I owners are compelled to exchange their units as a result of this French directive, we will exchange the Vigil I units for a nominal fee." Does that apply to Vigil 1 owners outside of france? Anyone know the fee?

Dave

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Since I am into physics I will explain; When the pilot pressurized the DC9 at Rantoul:

1) an increase in the cabin of pressure means for the AAD getting lower. It does not take too much of pressure increase to get the equivalent of 150 feet alright! Note from the Vigil manual page 20: << the airplane may not fly more than 100 seconds in a zone of plus or minus 150 feet = + or - 46 meters above or under take off level in any modes >>. Now from the Cypres manual page 32: << An aircraft must never descent to alitude below the elevation of the airfield of departure...when using a pressurized aircraft make sure that the cabin remains open when the turbines are started up. Leave a window, a door or the ramp open a bit until after lift off. This will ensure that the cabin pressure cannot build up above the air pressure on the ground >>.

It seems both manufacturers do not recommend that the airplane get below the take off altitude or pressurized the airplane to make believe to the AAD there is a descent. Fear of recalibration or firing ??? In Thailand with the World Team problems of that kind happened. The Vigils fired while the Cypres got jammed (see Skydiving magazine few years ago).

2) the rate (with respect to the time) at which the pressure increases is translated as the downward vertical speed. If the pressurization is fast enough, it will be interpreted by the AAD as a speed (going down) at 35 m/s or higher and therefore meeting the firing conditions if the 1) item is met.

Note: It seems that if you fall from the bridge (base jump) equiped with a Vigil you will get it firing (speculation).

Note: In the DC9, AAD firing happened after somebody asked for the air conditionning. Was the pressure first decreased then increased. I have no idea. Sorry but the only thing I remembered when my Vigil fired was that my altimeter was below MINUS 1000 ft when I had it set up at zero before boarding.

I hope this will satisfy you. Nothing to hide here. Keep in mind that ARIZONA AIRSPEED which is considered as one of the best 4 way team in the world at the moment is using the VIGIL.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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Pilotdave,

I am an avid supporter for the VIGIL II but I also like the CYPRES2 as well. Although I myself have a VIGIL II whenever anyone asks me which one is better than the other I always answer that neither is superior over the other. They both have their pluses as well as their negatives. It also sickens me that someone can so blindly believe in a single product even though they have never done any kind of research and solely make their opinion based on other peoples opinions
EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

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It seems both manufacturers do not recommend that the airplane get below the take off altitude or pressurized the airplane to make believe to the AAD there is a descent. Fear of recalibration or firing ??? In Thailand with the World Team problems of that kind happened. The Vigils fired while the Cypres got jammed (see Skydiving magazine few years ago).



And cypres2s just needed to be restarted, right? I think we fundamentally disagree on an important point. I believe that the worst thing an AAD can do is fire when not needed. You seem to believe that the worst thing it can do is not fire when it is needed. They're both bad, but in one case it could kill you whereas in the other case it simply fails to save you.

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the rate (with respect to the time) at which the pressure increases is translated as the downward vertical speed. If the pressurization is fast enough, it will be interpreted by the AAD as a speed (going down) at 35 m/s or higher and therefore meeting the firing conditions if the 1) item is met.



It also has to detect that the altitude has previously reached arming altitude and that the current altitude is within the firing range (both low enough and high enough).

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Note: It seems that if you fall from the bridge (BASE jump) equiped with a Vigil you will get it firing (speculation).



Maybe if you turn it on below the bridge and then go up to the top. I suspect it would fire before impact... dunno if it would help. Not sure why that's a good thing.

Personally I think 150 feet is too low for an arming altitude. If I fell out of a plane at 200 feet, I don't expect that an AAD firing would save me. And I think it really increases the chances for a misfire inside an aircraft, possibly with the door open and jumpers belted in. Worst case scenario for an AAD... IMO.

I don't know that 1500 feet is a magic number either, but I do believe it reduces the probability of what I consider to be the worst thing an AAD can do. But at the same time, it might mean the cypres might not work in a very low emergency exit.

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Keep in mind that ARIZONA AIRSPEED which is considered as one of the best 4 way team in the world at the moment is using the VIGIL.



There are jumpers that choose to use rigs other than Vector 3s. I think it's weird, but it's their choice... :P I don't choose gear based on who gets to jump it for free.

Dave

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Good choice of harness/container since I too have a Vector III but with a Vigil II inside.

I was just saying as an illustration that if a team like Arizona Airspeed wants to train a lot and participate to the highest level world competition without having any problem with an AAD they certainly consider the Vigil as a good product even if it is free for them. I hope you don't believe that there is no free Cypres somewhere. Ask Éric Fradet. Canadian 4 way Team Evolution is sponsored by Argus. I guess they got them for free. Would you use a free "lemon" despite the fact you know it will give you a lot of trouble?
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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So serious question to anyone that knows the answer... AAD says in a press release: "If Vigil I owners are compelled to exchange their units as a result of this French directive, we will exchange the Vigil I units for a nominal fee." Does that apply to Vigil 1 owners outside of france? Anyone know the fee?

Dave



The Fee is 125 euros ...
@+ en l'air et bon saut

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The Fee is 125 euros ...

125 € = 200 US$

latest news was it was only applicable to the French, but this might have change. Contact your local Vigil dealer for more up-to-date info.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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It is 175 euros if you have to change the cutter and this is only applicable in FRANCE.
Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

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Cypres has had misfires... mostly many years ago and the problems were fixed. They had a recall recently...



Many years ago?
Last year, freeflyer, AAD was not switched on (due to an error when the owner wanted to switch it on, and decided to jump it anyway) but fired at 9000 ft.
Mmm, not switched on and still fired? Bad luck, it never reached it 4 year inspection. :S

I think I will never know what happened with my unit when I had to sent back my cypres for its 4-year inspection. Never recieved any info about what they changed or inspected.
1. Modifications we were never told of, because they never did a recall but waited for this inspection?
2. Repairs we were never told of, because the power on tests never found something and I (maybe)jumped a defective device?

At least Vigil/Argus must inform you if they have found a problem. Cypres just can wait till the next inspection.
It is just how you look at the 4 year inspection. 20 years ago, your car needed a maintenance every 5000 km, now it tells you when to make a new appointment with your favorite mechanic.

Do you like:
- the swoop mode, buy Argus,
- the speed version, buy Cypres
- 4 years inspection, buy Cypres
- no inspection, but selftest, buy Argus or Vigil
- an AAD which fires when in doubt, buy ....
- an AAD which switches off when in doubt, buy ...

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We got no explanation from AAD when we had a real live misfire (tandem under canopy) with a vigil. They came out with some press releases soon afterward and then quietly released the vigil 2.



Well do a search on this forum how often people were informed by Airtec in case of strange behaviour of their cypres?

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... and got loaner units to use while they were being fixed.



Where I live, we are not allowed to jump without an AAD. I have never received a loaner cypres from the manufacturer, when we have to sent our cypres to Germany for its 4 year inspection.

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