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maLUCo

CYPRES vs. VIGIL I do not which one to choose ...

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I have a perfectly good Cypres that is on the verge of becoming a paper weight because Airtec restricts its usage to 12 years.

I will never buy another product from Airtec, nor will I recomend them to anyone.

Both are reliable, but I can only recomend the Vigil.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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Because they put a 12-year life limit on their products? Any other reason?

It'll be interesting to see what happens to Vigils as they reach age 12 and beyond. Hope they got their reliability analyses right...

Based on their history, I don't expect that they've thought of everything yet. To me, the choice between cypres and vigil has little to do with the units themselves. More to do with the companies behind them. I'd take a cypres over a vigil and a vigil over nothing. :)
Dave

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I have a perfectly good Cypres that is on the verge of becoming a paper weight because Airtec restricts its usage to 12 years.

I will never buy another product from Airtec, nor will I recomend them to anyone.

Both are reliable, but I can only recommend the Vigil.

_Am



I bet you are the kind of guy who would accuse the rigger in the thread below of having a hidden agenda :.

thread : http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3266866;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

PRECISION
ELECTRONIC

what makes you think those are made to last forever ?

I mean if Vigil keeps having mass recalls every few years up to their 20 year life, the opportunity cost of ownership will be a lot higher than a Cypres - but hell, you will get 20 years out of it. Doesn't really make sense TO ME :)

cya

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Because they put a 12-year life limit on their products? Any other reason?



That's a big part of it.

Electronic devices are capable of reliable self tests. Deep testing during scheduled maintenance is a reasonable alternative to bricking.

Occam's razor being what it is, the only likely motive is profit.

Ultimately, rarely will it be the case that the original purchases keeps the unit 12 years. Instead, they'll likely keep it just a few years before they move out of the sport. With the Vigil, they don't have a prescribed accelerated depreciation. With a Vigil, they'll be able to sell the unit for more cash as it will likely have a longer lifespan.

Not only is the Vigil cheaper to buy, and cheaper to maintain, but it will likely have a higher resale.

It's already proven itself just as good as the Cypres.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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It's already proven itself just as good as the Cypres.



Is that a joke? Seriously... I mean maybe the Vigil II fixed the problems with the original vigils, but I'd hardly say it's proven itself at all. Ok, well, it's proved to fire much better than the cypres... it does it in freefall, under canopy, and on the ground! :P

FYI, I'm not really anti-vigil or anything. I might buy me a used Vigil for my backup rig. But I really think most of your assumptions are way off base... both about the cypres and the vigil.

Dave

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The comparison between Cypres and Vigil has been made a couple of times in this forum but since you and the author of the thread ask for it here is the reason why the choice, from may point of view is obvious;

1) Cypres box in made of plastic ABS like with tiny and fragile cables between that box and cutter and display window while Vigil box is made of sturdy molded aluminum which has a flat and curved shape which makes it very ergonomic into a reserve container (I am a rigger). The Vigil cable are strong and Kevlar reinforced and can sustained a tension up to 110 lbs.

2) The Cypres has scheduled compulsory costly maintenances at 4 years and 8 years while the Vigil has a no scheduled maintenance and its maintenance can be done at your discretion. Cypres is no more good after 12 years while Vigil life expectancy is evaluated at 20 years.

3) Cypres mode is factory set while Vigil has the 3 modes (PRO, STUDENT and TANDEM) that you can set up yourself (the chosen mode stays on the display all the time the device is at ON then no chance of confusion if you check it when stwitching it on at the beginning of the day). This features is particularly interesting for equipment managment in a DZ since you can remove a Vigil on PRO mode and install it in a tandem or a student rig after changing for the mode needed. As a jumper, if you have to sell it, it will be easier because of that feature.

4) The Cypres when switched on shows a series of numbers while the Vigil shows exactely what it is checking like : BATT OK, CTRL OK and CUT OK for batteries, control and cutter. The Vigil with the INFO dsiplay can gives you the data of your last jump. The Vigil provided you buy the interface and the sofware let you download the data of your last 16 minutes (15 or 16 jumps) including the graphs Speed versus Time and Altitude versus Time. This how I could evsluate that my Sabre-2-170 was opening on a vertical distance of 340 feet (average of 10 jumps) and that my Katana 170 was opening on a vertical distance of 600 feet (average od 10 jumps). The Cypres does not offer such data downloading capabilities for the customer, only for the manufacturer.

5) The Vigil II has now double batteries good for at least 7 years or more than 1500 jumps. The Cypres has its batteries changed at 4 years maintenance. Vigil II batteries cost 50 EUROs or 75 $. Cypre maintenance cost way more and you have to ship it to an Airtec service center increasing that way the cost.

6) Cypres II cost right now 1350$ while the Vigil II cost is still 1199$

7) As Billvon said both devices are good but in my opinion Vigil II is a really more advanced design that the Cypres II. Vigil is more user's friendly, more good looking, more ergonomic, more interesting to play with and Vigil works well (I had 2 firings with my Vigil) and each time after donwloading the data, I could just conclude that the Vigil made its job as designed. One of the firing occured because of a low pull at Perris Valley and you can check it as #17 on the SAVES list on the Vigil (Advanced Arerospace Designs) web site. The second time was when the DC9 pilot at Rantoul on the ground started, by ignorance of the pressure sensitive devices aboard (AAD) pressurizing tha cabin. The Vigils fired because they don't have to reach 1500 feet like the Cypres to get armed and ready for firing just as designed. The Vigil felt the pressure increase in the cabin and translated that as a rapid descent below the firing altitude meeting that way the Vigil firing conditions ie: 78 MPH or more + at or below 840 feet.

Those things above are facts and I let you now judge by yourself. If you have more questions I will be happy to answer since I start to know quite well the AADs.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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Excellant... an informative response based on facts and not just the opinions of others.

Ok... I'll admit to baiting you a bit, since I interpreted your initial response as rather flippant and while the reasons may be obvious to you, they could easily be lost on someone else. Thanks much for an informative post....

If we ever meet up, the first :D is on me. And btw... there's a Vigil II sitting in my rig. :)
Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

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Hi maLUco and GLITCH, thanks for your good words. I consider it's my duty as a rigger (since 1977) to spread the information. As I mentioned it, my choice for the Vigil is obvious but I tried to be rational as much as possible. It's my nature to tell the people when I find out a good product. Past Monday I got the iPHONE G3 and it is a pure wonder. I am a MAC afficionado. I have to show it to my friends. Right now, I am leaving home to go and perform pull testing on Cypres and Vigil Dyneema loop at a local lab. I will write the results on this forum. Blue skies.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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Very informative and also very biased. You put positive spin on a misfire you had inside an aircraft. Sorry, but your AAD didn't work properly. It worked as designed... that's true. But that's just a sign of poor design. But they fixed that issue on the Vigil II, right? For me, I don't particularly care if the AAD is smart enough to deal with a pressurized aircraft. I've never been in a situation where that would matter, so it wouldn't affect my decision.

But the fact is that the Vigil was easily confused by a simple situation. It saw unreasonable pressure changes and apparently wasn't able to identify the pressure change as being unreasonable. Instead, it did the worst thing an AAD can do... fire when not needed.

The vigil definitely has some design improvements over the cypres. I completely agree with that. It also has some nice added features like data logging. That's a nice addition. Some of the improvements don't seem all that useful to me... words instead of a countdown at startup? Who cares? If a vigil or a cypres gives an error, it's no good. I don't care what a cypres happens to be testing when it says 5 or 500 on the screen.

The vigil would be (or will be, or maybe is) a great AAD... if the problems have been solved. But there's still a bit of a trust issue with the company. They did a really poor job of dealing with the misfires in the past. I honestly don't know if Vigil 1s are safe to jump or not. Our DZ didn't take any chances after a tandem misfire... replaced all their vigils in tandem or student gear with Cypres2s. Can ya blame em, considering they never really got any explanation for the misfire?

Dave

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Alright Gang - I'm not trying to be the late-comer raising issues, but If you are seriously considering an AAD, you should include the Argus into your decision making process. It has it's own set of pro's and Con's, unique to itself, and is just as reliable of an aad as either of the two. :)
=========Shaun ==========


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>The second time was when the DC9 pilot at Rantoul on the ground
>started, by ignorance of the pressure sensitive devices aboard (AAD)
>pressurizing tha cabin.

This is one reason I prefer the Cypres over the Vigil for my own rigs. I often jump pressurizable aircraft, and I do not want a spurious pressurization to cause a firing in the aircraft. To me, the most important thing an AAD can do is NOT fire when I am not in freefall at a very low altitude.

However, most people do not have that issue, and thus the Vigil might well be a good choice for them.

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Ok gang - for the record - I'm a rigger, and know Andre personally, and have come to the same conclusions as he has (I just bought a Vigil2 this year, and am probably buying one for my second rig very soon).

I have 2 recent situations that further the point (for me).

First situation:

I live in Canada. I just sent a Cypress 1 for it's 4-year maintenance, 7 years into it's life. It cost CDN$340.00 (with battery replacement). The owner bought a used rig that hadn't been packed in a few years, although the Cypress seemed to work fine. By the book = $340.00. And guess what - it'll need its 8-year in less than a year! Another $340.00. Wow.

Second situation:

I just bought a used rig that had 1994 Cypress in it. Same situation as above - reserve hadn't been packed in over 4 years, sitting in a closet, unused. The cypress had been serviced in 2003, and here we are 5 years later, with a unit that's been off for 5 years, in working condition, but by the book = removed from the rig, paperweight, expired. Or more to the point needing a new AAD @ over $1,700.00 for a Cypress (shipped, duty to Canada, taxes, etc.). All this for a 14 year old second backup rig for me that cost me ~$1000.00 to put together out of old parts.

In both these situations, had the AAD been a Vigil (which is impossible given the dates, but fast forward 8 or 12 years from now). The AAD owner would be in the air without paying SSK a wackload of cash.

And that's the breaking point for me. I'm just not that rich. So Vigil2 it is.

(oh, and I've personally seen both an Argus and various cypress (1 and 2) be broken and busted - just by installing it in the rig given the flimsy cables). Like Andre says - hold it in your hands, and you'll see.
CSPA D-1046 TI Coach2 RiggerA JM SSI SSE GCI EJR Canadian 102-way record holder
bard.ca

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Very informative and also very biased. You put positive spin on a misfire you had inside an aircraft. Sorry, but your AAD didn't work properly. It worked as designed... that's true. But that's just a sign of poor design. But they fixed that issue on the Vigil II, right? For me, I don't particularly care if the AAD is smart enough to deal with a pressurized aircraft. I've never been in a situation where that would matter, so it wouldn't affect my decision.



The arming altitude for the cypres is an easy way to avoid the programming and subsequent testing associated with pressurizing aircraft and closing trunks. If you bail from a stricken aircraft at 1300 feet and knock your head getting out then the unarmed cypres will be happy to do nothing as you bounce. As I understand it the vigil2 takes care of the aircraft pressure situation.

-Michael

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>As I understand it the vigil2 takes care of the aircraft pressure situation.

Per Jo Smolders, the Vigil 2 will indeed misfire during spurious pressurization events. The next Vigil, according to him, will not; it will contain logic to prevent such misfirings. (Vigil 3?)

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This is one reason I prefer the Cypres over the Vigil for my own rigs. I often jump pressurizable aircraft, and I do not want a spurious pressurization to cause a firing in the aircraft.



While true, and something to be aware of - I just don't see this as all that different from characteristic of a (student) Cypres were it will fire in a descending plane. Both are scenarios where the unit will fire in an undesirable manner. Both are scenarios where the unit should be turned off. Both are scenarios where the jumper and pilots need to be well briefed beforehand.

Both devices have scenarios where they will misread atmospheric changes commonly found in aircrafts.

The only difference is that it's impractical to turn off a vigil before climbing. It's unbalanced for people pillage the Vigil while giving carte blanche to the Cypres.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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I'm not sure if there's more to it than just the 1500 foot arming altitude. At least in thailand, the cypres 1s shut off and had to be sent back. That's not great, but to me it's better than firing. Apparently they have some smarts in them to see that something is out of whack. Seems reasonable to me that the unit should "see" a climb before it sees a descent and be able to tell whether or not it's calculated fallrate is reasonable or not. Dunno what the cypres does... but it's apparently more than the vigil.

Dave

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