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JohnDeere

Do you think a canopy courses should be required?

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I have taken 2 canope courses. One when i had about 75 jumps (basic course), and the other when i had about 300 jumps (advanced course). First by Scott Miller, and secound by J.C. I beleive it should be done before B lic. I think A is a basic lic. and should stay that way. Also (good) instuctors are sometimes limited. Before anybody says that there are not enought instuctors...... If it became a requirement more quality canopy pilots would start to teach! Supply and demand would come into effect.
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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Tying additional training to the liscenses makes sense. But until you give people a reason to need a liscense then it just becomes another reason to not get one. I know guys with well over 500 jumps that still have their A cards.
If you don't venture too far from your home DZ, then there isn't much that you will ever need an actual liscense for.
Perhaps require a B before learning to freefly or do anything larger than 4 way?
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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I don't think they should be required. I have 101 jumps and I wish I could get into a canopy course but they hardly ever come around here. I DO think people should be responsible about learning canopy flight though, with only 100 jumps I still ask other canopy pilots what I'm doing wrong !

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I've done two also. A basic course with Scott Miller when I had about 25 jumps and then a basic+advanced combo with Ian Drennan at about 175 jumps.

I think requiring it for a B license makes sense. With all the injuries associated with bad decisions under canopy, it would be a logical step to require additional training in that area. Then again, I can certainly see the other side of the argument that the courses aren't always available in your area, which could stifle progression...

-syn
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain
a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty
nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

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I think a canopy control course can help anybody no matter what their experience is.;)

DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

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I don't know about being required but I can say that my course with Luigi Cani was great and it taught me a ton! I wish more people did do them!! We also got to see him fly his napkin..... unreal!!

Blues
Rob
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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It's a sad thing that people overlook this, but it IS a requirement, before you get an "A" license. These are specific sign offs needed, and training that should be going along with that. There are specific criteria that a student must meet in order to become a skydiver.

The ability to understand how and actually be able to safely navigate and land a parachute is not an option, and an repeated inability to do so, is a non passable condition.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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You are correct but once (most) people get an A lic. They stop trying to learn under canopy. Unless we are talking about the 100 Jump wornder not trying to learn his canopy for nothing more than swooping. Plus the course teaches so much more than you can learn at the bomb fire!
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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I agree 100% but i dont think the Aff instructors have enought time to give to the newbs for them to learn all they need to. Also i know that students have enought on there mind when the are in Aff and after while trying to get there A lic. That is another reason i think it sould be required for the B Lic.
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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It wont solve anything. People should be interested flying their canopies and not being a passenger under those.

Some people close their mind after getting their first license.
No requirement can change that.

I really don;t know if the policy like in UK any better to require come CC courses to fly HP canopies.

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....I beleive it should be done before B lic. I think A is a basic lic. and should stay that way. Also (good) instuctors are sometimes limited. Before anybody says that there are not enought instuctors...... If it became a requirement more quality canopy pilots would start to teach! Supply and demand Awould come into effect.



Put me solidly in the "make it a requirement" camp.
When? Hmmmm...I voted "before A" simply because I feel the sooner the better but I'm still thinking on it.

We do already have a Conopy Control Progression Card of sorts. The CC courses use it, I'm sure.

For those who voted "big boys and girls", I ask you:
That's what we have going now and with the current state of things, it's obvious that that approach is not working. Too many getting hurt under good canopies.
Most, by far and away, are choosing NOT to take any advanced instruction of canopy control and you see where it's leading, right?

For those who would willingly avoid obtaining a higher license because of additional training requirements...I'm not sure I want to be jumping with those attitudes anyway. I feel let down when I come across those attitudes.

And you are right, John...there is the problem of training availability right now but that can be fixed. Train the trainers.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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IMO you must have an open receptacle in order to acquire a valuable product. I sought out, rearranged my schedule and attended Scott Miller's basic and advanced canopy control courses. Excellent teacher and important product. The key is, I wanted the information, practice and coaching.

My concerns about mandating training are: "student" motivation for training and degradation of the product.

If we mandate training DZs will respond in variable fashion. A few DZs with great resources will offer courses camparable to the excellent courses currently on the market. (A minority of the jumpers even at those DZs will attend a full day course). Some DZs will have a 1-2 hour lecture at Safety Day and perhaps one in Jul/Aug and those who can't make it will still be flying, just not advancing. Some DZs will talk with their jumpers 20 minutes before the next load and call it "training". Neither of the last 2 options are comparable to the courses on the market for theory of flight and observed practice.

Most DZs don't have the time and resources to devote to a full day to a theory, practice, debriefing course therefore will opt for one of the last 2 options. It will be a rubber stamp "mandated training", just degraded canopy control instruction.

I admit upfront that even a closed receptacle, immersed, will retain some product. But in order to effect change, canopy pilots must acknowledge the risk and be willing to do something to mitigate that risk for themselves, their friends and our community.

You can't mandate that.
"You can't skydive if you are sitting on the couch at home."
Richard "the C" Eddy

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>Do you think a canopy courses should be required?

Canopy control demonstration is already required for all license levels and is covered in the ISP. I'd be for increasing the amount of education, since the lack thereof is the #1 killer of jumpers nowadays.

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For those who voted "big boys and girls", I ask you:
That's what we have going now and with the current state of things, it's obvious that that approach is not working. Too many getting hurt under good canopies.



Just throwing on another "sign off on this" requirement isn't going to solve anything.

People will sit in the course, remember just enough to pass it, then the day it's over go out and buy a 2.0 loaded katana and spin it into the ground taking out 3 people in pattern along the way.

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Most DZs don't have the time and resources to devote to a full day to a theory, practice, debriefing course therefore will opt for one of the last 2 options.



Dz's dont need resources! They need a phone to call an instructor and tell him they need him to teach a course. That is how we got J.C. , a group of us at the DZ called him and said we had X# of people for the course. It was over his min. people or what ever, and he came and taught us. The DZ had nothing to do with it.
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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Canopy control demonstration is already required for all license levels and is covered in the ISP.



I am well aware of that. But it is so minimal compared to what is learned in a course. That is why i said canopy course.
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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I voted for before the B license. I know people that only have an A license that are well beyond having a D. If you don't want to get an instructor rating there's really no need to go beyond the A. A bigger problem that I've seen at several of the places I've been to is that as soon as someone can land by themselves somewhere in the landing area they get taken off of the radio. That pretty much ends their canopy training unless they happen to want to learn on their own. The coach/instructor may tell them to do stuff under canopy but there's nobody to witness it to see if they're doing it correctly, if they actually do it. Or how about if they do it, once, and then consider it learned and don't practice anymore. They got their box checked so that's all they need to know right? I had over two hundred jumps before I knew what a brake turn is. I had to learn that from a book because I couldn't get a good explanation from my home dz. I'm sure if I would've pushed the issue I could've learned earlier, but I didn't know how important they are, so I didn't. We were talking about having someone like Phil from Greensburg come to ISA this year but the dz closed up before we got the chance.
"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

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Although I voted "no, we're big boys n girls".... I would definatly put it into the "strongly" reccommended" catagory. I am still a newbie in MOST aspects and I look forward to taking a canopy course some time in the near future as I KNOW that it will only enhance my abilities, making me a safer skydiver/canopy pilot and ensuring the longevity of our beautiful sport. Blue skies
If flying is piloting a plane.. then swimming is driving a boat. I know why birds sing.. I skydive.

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I would argue that the canopy skills taught in most general courses (not the advanced type) should already be included in the ISP. Making a requirement out of a requirement is like telling the government now that they should be regulating wall st. That was already supposed to be happening. I took a course with just under 200 jumps in SoCal at Elsinore. It was nice to take the course in a organized manner that it was , but I didn't learn anything new. I had learned it all in my Static Line course in Malone - and practiced it!

I would also argue that most serious accidents and deaths that are canopy related are occurring with canopy pilots that have either:

A) Become good enough to kill themselves
or
B) Lack quality judgment

Maybe a combination of the two. In general, you aren't seeing "A" licensed 100 jump guys killing themselves under canopy.

What we need is for quality instructors, S&TA's, and DZO's to band together and enforce the rules and requirements that are already on the books. Don't sign off a canopy requirement unless it has been clearly witnessed. This includes accuracy requirements.

We need instructors, S&TA's, and DZO's to exemplify the rules of canopy piloting and not be exceptions to the rule.

In short, the requirements are in the books. Lets follow them

:)

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

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I agree 200%, definitly should be done before getting your B license. More training will equal safer skydivers which will equal (hopefully) less accidents. Granted there will always be asshats who don't pay attention that the rest of us will always have to watch for, but having a canopy course will also help us handle those asshats more efficiently when they are encountered....;)

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I put mine into B licence category because we just don't get enough canopy training during our A's. We are just fully occupied to fly and land at this stage. At about 50 jmps, there are things we can aim to do. I think this is when it's great to do a canopy course.
In Australia one has to do this B-REL jumps (relative work with instructor) to get your B's and you need B to do cRew course...So it is compulsory to do this. I'd rather do a compulsory canopy course to get my B's and from a safety point of view it makes more sense. I can understand anything mandatory is a downer but in this case...
I think it is necessary to train the trainer as Pop's says, cause not all instructors are good canopy pilots. Especially in Australia.
Another thing is we get cocky after about 2 years, 200jmps whatever..
Like when you get your driver's licence, we are quite careful in the beginning but in our 2nd year we might have an accident, you know what I mean...
So, I reckon it's good to do an advanced canopy course about that time. People who has done 2 in this post is spot on! Well done guys!
BE A SAFE COCKY

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It was nice to take the course in a organized manner that it was , but I didn't learn anything new.



Then that course SUCKED! I know 3 canopy coaches and all 3 have said they sit in on other canopy courses to learn more. Not trying to be shity but i dout you know more (about capony piloting and general canopy knoledge) than any of those 3. So if Scott miller can still learn in someone elses course i beleive you or i can!
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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