DocPop 1 #26 June 30, 2008 QuoteOK, not to flame you, but maybe "warm you up" a bit...I glanced at your profile, and... what's with the 126 sq ft reserve with a 1.31 WL at 100 jumps? I sure hope you don't have to make a no-hands, no-flare landing, or set it down in a postage-stamp sized out - each of which is very possible with a reserve landing... ...just friendly food for thought.... (P.S. - my reserve is larger than my main - there's a reason for that...) While I agree with you about the small reserve, I fail to see how jump numbers relate to a no-flare, no-hands landing. If anyone does that, it's gonna be bumpy. The laws of physics don't change when you get to a certain jump number!"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #27 June 30, 2008 QuoteQuoteOK, not to flame you, but maybe "warm you up" a bit...I glanced at your profile, and... what's with the 126 sq ft reserve with a 1.31 WL at 100 jumps? I sure hope you don't have to make a no-hands, no-flare landing, or set it down in a postage-stamp sized out - each of which is very possible with a reserve landing... ...just friendly food for thought.... (P.S. - my reserve is larger than my main - there's a reason for that...) While I agree with you about the small reserve, I fail to see how jump numbers relate to a no-flare, no-hands landing. If anyone does that, it's gonna be bumpy. The laws of physics don't change when you get to a certain jump number! Experience matters. Those with experience have a much better chance of walking away from that scenario as they (hopefully) would understand how to fly and land in such a way as to avoid injury. Think broken arm(s). On the other side if you were knocked out I'm sure you'd be wishing for the larger reserve when and if you ever woke up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #28 June 30, 2008 QuoteOn the other side if you were knocked out I'm sure you'd be wishing for the larger reserve when and if you ever woke up. Think positive! Its no use to fill his mind with fear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #29 June 30, 2008 Quote You DO realise that it is posts like these that lead to the "I'm not an instructor/have low jump#s but" type of reply, don't you? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #30 June 30, 2008 Quote>Is there such a thing as an entry level elliptical? Most canopies nowadays are elliptical/tapered to some degree. Some good mid-experience mildly elliptical canopies include: Silhouette (I have two and like them) Pilot (have had 3 over the years) Safire2 Spectre (7 cell, pretty docile at larger sizes) Vision or Nitron would be a step above them. Just curious: are you excluding the Sabre2, or just citing a few examples? I'd have though to put it in the same basic category as Pilot and Safire2. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #31 June 30, 2008 QuoteJust curious: are you excluding the Sabre2, or just citing a few examples? I'd have though to put it in the same basic category as Pilot and Safire2. He has not mentioned lot of canopies by name. If someone gets the pattern that can find even more in the same class. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #32 June 30, 2008 QuoteQuoteOn the other side if you were knocked out I'm sure you'd be wishing for the larger reserve when and if you ever woke up. Think positive! Its no use to fill his mind with fear. I dont think there was a fear tacticbeing used. sounds like trying to educate.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #33 June 30, 2008 >are you excluding the Sabre2? Don't have much experience with it, so can't say one way or the other definitely. Most people put it in that category. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lawdog1 0 #34 July 1, 2008 Quote lol of course I know it is an evil joke. I think Truman Sparks of Pecos Parachute school would be the give away there Thanks to all who relied. I really was just curious and have no plans to change gear at all. Looking forward to hundreds of jumpd on my spectre. As with most gear related issues, I guess the answer comes down to wing loading, experiance and of course personal preferance. BUT Truman used to pack chutes in 'Nam and repacks his every week (and adds dust on top of them when he does).. He also puts fresh laundry in his containers, as he is such a pimp, he knows nobody but HIM (and the coyote) would jump a laundry-main loaded rig "At least he has one chute and . . . MY LAUNDRY" "Burn his car! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #35 July 1, 2008 As Performance Designs said, there is actually neither semi elliptical nor elliptical canopies. If you look closely at them on the ground, they are tapered. Semi tapered or fully tapered. Sabre 2 is slightly tapered on the leading edge Nitron is moderately tapered on the leading edge and on the tail. Katana is highly tapered on the leading edge and on the tail. The taper involves generally the 2 last cells on each side while the middle cells are relatively straight. I would say that if you are proficient in canopy piloting on rectangular canopies you could go on a slightly fully tapered canopy like the Nitron at about 100 jumps and if you are good at it go on a Katana (highly and fully elliptical) when having 200-300 jumps (always get a good briefing). I am not speaking here about kleenex size canopies but about 150, 170, 190 canopies using the one which will meet your loading factor. Elliptical or tapered is not the only factor to be considered. For instance, the Nitron 135 has a quite shallow trim angle of, according the way I calculate it, is 13.75 degrees. The Katana 170 has probably the deepest trim angle with 18 degrees (that why the Katana is a diver when you turn in order to give you a lot of speed for landing). BYW if you land straight with a Katana it behaves like a Sabre 2 The Sabre 2-170 has 15.34 degrees. I hope I answered your question. Waiting to be beaten again by the moderator Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elias123 0 #36 July 1, 2008 Electra maby? I thought they were semi-elliptical, and good beginner or intermediate canopy's, with very good landing charesteristics. (I base this on absolutely nothing.)"In a mad world, only the mad are sane" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #37 July 1, 2008 Isn't "entry Level" elliptical an oxymoron? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
taylor.freefall 0 #38 July 2, 2008 Just out of interest if two parachutes were the same size, say 190, but one was elliptical and one was normal, what would be the biggest difference when flying? I know that (more think) elliptical have a much stronger flare. Wouldn't that be better than on that didn't flare as well? Granted better flare probably means faster but which would be better? So I'm thinking two parachutes the same size can be different in speed and "sportiness"? So really You wouldn't need to downsize to get a better performance canopy. Or would a 170 "normal" parachute be sportier than a 190 elliptical? Making the 190 elliptical safer - even though it's sportier? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #39 July 2, 2008 I'm not sure if the elliptical or tapered as mentioned above has anything to do with the flare. There are so many variables that come into play - the attachment points, the tale length, the steering line attachments. As the PD rep just pointed out this weekend even the front/rear bias of the cascade has an effect on how a canopy flies and flares. A tapered wing is more efficient than a non-tapered so it should fly faster. I found my Sabre2-170 was far more responsive to the toggles than a sabre1-150. That may be related to the speed but it may just be that the steering lines are deflecting more of the airfoil. Might be a totally different reason too :) -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #40 July 2, 2008 >A tapered wing is more efficient than a non-tapered so it should fly faster. Efficient (in terms of L/D) does not generally equal faster; that's set mainly by loading and trim. It often equals flatter glide though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #41 July 2, 2008 >you could go on a slightly fully tapered canopy like the Nitron at about 100 jumps . . . As always, take what you read here with a grain of salt. The poster above is giving dangerously bad advice, and you could reasonably expect injury if you follow it without first getting the proper training and experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #42 July 2, 2008 Quote Isn't "entry Level" elliptical an oxymoron? Good point, Columbo! _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #43 July 2, 2008 Quote>A tapered wing is more efficient than a non-tapered so it should fly faster. Efficient (in terms of L/D) does not generally equal faster; that's set mainly by loading and trim. It often equals flatter glide though. The only thing I have to compare is that a Sabre1-170 was noticeably slower than my sabre2-170. I assume with a more efficient wing you would then have to trim it flatter to bring the forward speed down? -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #44 July 2, 2008 QuoteLooking forward to hundreds of jumpd on my spectre. Great, because you are already flying a semi-elliptical ("tapered") wing. The Spectre is tapered per PD, so you don't have to go any father than your closet to find a great "entry-level elliptical". - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #45 July 3, 2008 from 90 odd jumps i was using a safire 190, which i found to have a lot better nicer flare than the spectre 210 that i had been jumping before. Saying that i then borowed a saber 210 at jump number 130 and found the canopy to be super responsive whilst high up and a lot more forgiving on landing with a shorter 2 stage flare, (the break lines where set slightly differently, but the difference did not upset my bounce bingo odds) Last week i flew a pilot 188 which was in high winds, and after seeing somones canopy collapse i did not really want to mess about with it to much, but again really nice flight and able to dig into the wind a lot more than on the safire, only 2 square foot difference but it really made headway in high winds. I myself prefer the semi eyliptical...although i thought i had no real issues with the flight or landing or anything on a video that was shot of me i was very surprised of how vertical the canopy got in deep riser and deep break turns, (slightly shocked as well) so I may have got away with somthing bad happening in the past with such big inputs. I backed off a bit after that and took a canopy course, (best thing i ever did) and got some great advice from the guys in the know. So that is my advice, take a canopy course, demo a few different canopys, and find the one that you enjoy and the one they think would suit you. Good luck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #46 July 4, 2008 No flame, but elliptical canopies by definition are not entry level. You should have really solid experience with semi-ellipticals, whatever that means. It means that others, like canopy coaches, share in your opinion that you're ready for one. And by that time, you should have your own ideas about which size, brand name, or model would be right for you. So....if you need to ask, you're probably not ready. Disclaimer: I jump a Pilot and don't see myself ever being interested in a full elliptical myself, but that's just me. If you really want to go elliptical, LEARN how. WORK at it. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #47 July 4, 2008 Umm... Sabre2, Saffire 2, Pilot... there's more, those are just the three that roll off the top of my head. Really, all of the above are pretty damn high-performance. It just depends on wing loading. I've got 400ish jumps on my Sabre2 120, have been working on high-performance landing on it since day 1, and honestly my skill level is nowhere near high enough to justify something smaller/faster/higher performance. And that's just with W/L about 1.45:1. Trying to remember the name, but one of the PD factory guys said basically your ideal progression goes: Sabre2 in decreasing sizes, switch to katana of same size, then decrease size a couple more times, then switch to velocity of same size, work your way down further. Don't remember the recommended W/L for switching designs... maybe 1.6ish and 2.0ish? Obviously that's got a PD bias, but you could apply it to other lines... saffire 2, crossfire 2, VX for example."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #48 July 7, 2008 According you, how many jumps should have an aware and proficient jumper at landing with a rectangular canopy in order to jump a Nitron 190 after a good briefing (loaded at say 1.2) ?Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #49 July 7, 2008 1.2 loading on an elliptical? Personally I wouldn't recommend it, I'd point the person towards a less aggressive canopy like a Sabre2, Pilot, Safire or Lotus. If they insisted they had to have a Nitro then I'd say around 200 jumps or so. Higher if not current and jumping all the time. Big Air Sportz had a really good chart a while ago that showed a resonable progression chart. 1.1 - 100 jumps 1.2 - 200 jumps 1.3 - 300 jumps 1.4 - 400 jumps 1.5 - 500 jumps 1.6 - 600 jumps 1.7 - 700 jumps 1.8 - 800 jumps 1.9 - 900 jumps 2.0+ - 1000 jumps There were factors like if you were jumping at a higher altitude then you needed to have more jumps for the same loading due to density altitude. Also no smaller then a 150 for a first canopy no matter how "small" the person is.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #50 July 7, 2008 Quote1.2 loading on an elliptical? Personally I wouldn't recommend it, I'd point the person towards a less aggressive canopy like a Sabre2, Pilot, Safire or Lotus. If they insisted they had to have a Nitro then I'd say around 200 jumps or so. Higher if not current and jumping all the time. Big Air Sportz had a really good chart a while ago that showed a resonable progression chart. Brian's literature also states "Fully Elliptical Canopies are not permitted for jumpers with less than 300 jumps" with the term defined as more than 20% wing taper and that one size must be added for such canopies. The current version of Brian's Wingloading Never Exceed chart can be found at http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
