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ast4711

Who learned about or experienced Reserve Problems due to packing error on the reserve?

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Just out of curiosity and because I saw a freaky video....

How common is it to notice errors in the reserve pack either on actual use of the reserve or when opening the pack for scheduled maintainance/repack??

alex

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www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de

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yeahh... I know the story :-( !!!!

But I only want first-hand information, therefore I did not include an option for that....

alex







I had a G3r open spinning with a line over...:o


The rigger that last packed it always made a video of the procedure.

In this case it showed that the brake lines were not stowed in accordance with the manufacturers recommendation, thus the reserve parachute was packed incorrectly and malfunctioned.




Riding a streamer down too low, only to have plan B go sideways on ya....

...well THAT'LL make yer sticker peck up! ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I've found a couple of dozen of reserve packing errors over the years. More earlier than recently. And last year an issue I found (rediscovered) lead to a recall and the redesign of a container.

Most of the errors I've found were not life threatening. A few were. Including errors I found on my own rig after a 1400' reserve total leading to a 300' terminal opening. This was the reason I became a rigger.

One old time one was a Master Rigger who made his own four line release lanyard for a military round. It's just a piece of 550 suspension line sewn to look something like a closing loop. But he made it out of gutted 550 instead of full 550. And then installed and tied it wrong. Two 550 lb suspension lines were attached to the link with something with a strength of less than 100lbs. Life threatening? Probably not. Clearly wrong even to a student rigger? Yep, not just wrong but didn't make any sense.

Have I ever made an error? Yep, on my own rig when I didn't follow my own QC procedures. When I finally got around to counting my tools I had to go looking for a packing weight.:S

Most rigging errors won't be found on reserve use because it will work anyway. A few of the really bad ones on here lately, like the german one above, are really inexcusible. That one I would have called the regulators on.

I haven't called the FAA on any error I've found. Most were minor. One problem is once you find it the seal is broken and you can no longer prove the previous rigger did it. Video helps but I don't video every pack that I open. I know of at least one case where the Feds knew there was an issue and the inspector opened the pack job under controlled conditions.

PIA has a form for reporting errors that is seldom used. It recognized three levels of error. And in a couple of instances the PIA rigging chairman has acted as a liason between the rigger who found it and the rigger who did it.

One argument that has been used for staying at 120 day cycle in the U.S. Error are found quicker.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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One argument that has been used for staying at 120 day cycle in the U.S. Error are found quicker.



And of course, the corollary argument is that there is more opportunity for new errors to be introduced. So it's one of those "is the glass half-full or half-empty" things.

Same thing with aircraft maintenance. Routine maintenance prevents some problems from occurring, but mistakes are sometimes made which cause new problems.

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... and the most likely time for an airplane to fail is the first flight after a major inspection ... re: the recent jump plane crash in Tanzania.
Remember that the failure rate on most flying machines is a bath tub curve. If it survives the first few hours after maintenance, then you have to wait along time before a component breaks.

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Minor wear issues are common, but potentially fatal errors are really rae ... less than one percent.

Common minor wear includes frayed closing loops (Cypres loops rarely last more than two pack jobs), loose grommets, frayed Safety-stows, etc.

Weave separation is common on Javelin and Racer pilot chutes (due to ham-fisted riggers jamming fabric in with a packing paddle), but torn fabric is rare.

Damage that requires sewn patches (runway rash, loop damage to reserve canopies, etc.) occurs maybe one percent of the time.

We occasionally see Vectors packed using Talon manual, mis-placed bridle, transposed lines (on correct link, just out of sequence).

The last (five years ago) serious rigging error was a Raven steering line looped through the steering toggle multiple times, fingertrapped, but not knotted or sewn. Given the bulky Dacron line, it probably would not have fallen off. I quietly mentioned the error to the offending rigger. Since he was in the process of retiring, nothing more was said. Remember that I have repacked dozens of reserves that he had previously packed and this is the only error that I ever found on his work.

The bottom line is that potentially fatal errors occur less than one percent of the time.

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hi,
i have come across minor and major rigging errors,3 i believe would have led to pssible fatal consequences.
1.the reserve housing was tacked down with the reserve still in it,leading to the reserve bridle being tacked aswell!! i posted that here a while ago. the pilot chute only launched about 10" before stopping.not nice.
2. i found a PD reserve link that was not attached correctly.the loop did not go through the eye of the tab.when i inspected that one the loop at the end was only barely over the tab.when i pulled on the lines the soft link seperated and lines dissconnected.it was on a rear riser,so would the reserve still fly or landed safely? hhmm i dont hink so and i definetly would not like to try it.
3.a misrouted bridle on a tear drop,it used to be a 2 pin but a rigger decided to make it a one pin,there was a elastic locking loop on the upper grommets and most of the bridle was trapped there,but pushed in to far causing a lock of the bridle.

other things i have found,cypres loop not through the cutter,this appears to be a common occurance these days unfortunatley.B|

worn reserve closing loops,the can fray even after a new one was installed after a repack.

bend reserve pins,cutway cable or 3 ring incorrectly assembled,and couple of reserve lines not in sequence.that would not have been a problem in my opinion as the canopy would have still flown normally.just the rigger not paying enough attention i think.
another one was incorrect reserve handle.a guy had a mal,lost the handle after using it,rigger decided to give him a spare handle he had to get him in the air again.but the reserve cable was way to short.there was no slack at all in the cable.and after a quick expirment when the guy had a rig on i sked him to hunch over and move his shoulders,he almost extracted the reserve pin,it was hanging in there by mm.

i am sure that there is lots of things found by riggers out there over the years.a rigger must be vigilant at all times,and makes sure he or she follows there own procedure.if i get disrupted during a repack or have to leave the room.i just start again.its a pain in the arse,but much better that causing someone else a lot of pain or worse,cause you missed something.

and sofar i have 168 documented saves a and satisfied customers :)and i intend to keep it that way;)

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Wow... first of all: Thank you very much for sharing your information about this - especially the experienced riggers!

In a kind I am shocked....!!!!!!

...that packing errors are obviously "that common". I thought about getting a rigger license long before, but now this issue rised on my priority list - no doubt about it. Not that I do not trust my rigger, but I simply want to learn more ....
What do you (experienced guys) think are the reasons for these issues? Shurely it´s not rocket-sience to get a reserve into a container.
As a "normal jumper" I ask myself how it is possible that major errors in handling of a life saving device (this is not garden-chess or mini-golf) can occur at all.

What would you give your rigger-students on the way to make shure they do not make all these errors again???

alex

--
www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de

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Wow... first of all: Thank you very much for sharing your information about this - especially the experienced riggers!

In a kind I am shocked....!!!!!!

...that packing errors are obviously "that common". I thought about getting a rigger license long before, but now this issue rised on my priority list - no doubt about it. Not that I do not trust my rigger, but I simply want to learn more ....
What do you (experienced guys) think are the reasons for these issues? Shurely it´s not rocket-sience to get a reserve into a container.
As a "normal jumper" I ask myself how it is possible that major errors in handling of a life saving device (this is not garden-chess or mini-golf) can occur at all.

What would you give your rigger-students on the way to make shure they do not make all these errors again???

alex






hi alex,

i am sure every rigger has there on opinions as what makes a good rigger. time patience and knowledge is a good start.make your self a check list.i start from the rig up to the canopy inspecting each thing on my list as i go along.and tick them off as each one is checked.count your tools in and out,and a rigger needs to keep up to date with news and bullintins that are issued.check website such as these,they are pretty good.
packing a reserve is not rocket science,but you do need a good eye for the inspection.you need to pay attention to detail,thats the important part.looking for some wear and tear anywhere.
most of it is common knowledge,problem sometimes is its not common enough.i have witnessed a few rush reserve jobs,but every rigger normally has there own routine.
as for people finding errors,it does happen occasionaly,but there is a lot of excellent riggers out there that take pride in the work and it shows.most riggers take time to make a rig look good,e.g. making sure a pot top sits flat on a javelin or wings container etc etc.
and my view point also is,that its reasonable simple to get a riggers ticket. i dont believe that 20 pack jobs is enough.and a trainee rigger is supposed to have more expirience in repair and sewing mashines etc.
also dan poynter manuals,although very good and informative in a way,i believe they really need updating to the present day.at the same time it is still my bible when it comes to rigging! but at the present time you can do a 2 week course and get your ticket out of it.over here you have to spend at least 6 months working with a rigger before you can go for an exam
i hope you go for your riggers ticket,and i wish you all the best with it.
rodger

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDLjJaTxPgc

This is scary. I have only seen one other double malfunction, but that was when the guy did a backflip through his risers. I did not hear about this but this might be something that you are talking about.

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As a "normal jumper" I ask myself how it is possible that major errors in handling of a life saving device (this is not garden-chess or mini-golf) can occur at all.



Quote



You answered your own question...

Riggers are normal humans too and do make mistakes, especially when rushed or stressed.

In a perfect world...hell we wouldn't NEED a reserve, but we do because WE make mistakes too.

In my instance, a fairly good rigger packed me a reserve malfunction because of an unfamiliarity with type, which was new on the market at that time...

Internet was a dream so either you contacted the manufacturer for written procedure or (as i later found out) you opened it carefully and retraced the steps you observed after inspecting it... you faked it.:S

This one was 270 sqft with some goofy new line type and some magic wizardry required to get all that stuff to go in and OUT of a bag cleanly.

....my guy?


No actual manual, & no wizard dust. [:/];)


Spinning line over, that was cleared with a hook knife, canopy that big won't spin ya up like the 'plan B' almost rockets of today.

I do choose my rigger a bit more carefully these days. :$











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I heard from a close reliable source that a rigger X had discovered when opening a reserve pack that the reserve has been placed upside down (line stowing pocket on the top). There was no packing card for that reserve and when the rigger asked the owner who packed the reserve he said he couldn't remember and that he had lost the reserve packing card. The seal number had one of the 3 signs barely visible. The rigger A figured out finaly who was the rigger Z who packed the reserve. He was a close friend of the owner. Later on, it was discovered that the rigger Z never got his continuous rating and therefore wasn't a rigger anymore. However the rigger Z was active for about 15 years. Don't hesitate to ask a rigger his rigger's rating card.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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"also dan poynter manuals,although very good and informative in a way,i believe they really need updating to the present day."

.........................................................................

You need a copy of the new 300 page manual (written by Sandy Reid in 2005, published by the FAA in 2007) FAA Parachute Rigging Manual. It is what Poynter's Manual Volume 3 would look like if Dan Poynter ever wrote a volume 3.

Another fascinating book is the 600 page manual recently (2008) written by Eric Fradet. The only disadvantage to Fradet's manual is that is written in French ... but aren't all the better-educated Europeans bilingual?
Fradet offered to let me translate his manual into English, the question is whether there is sufficient demand???

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You need a copy of the new 300 page manual (written by Sandy Reid in 2005, published by the FAA in 2007) FAA Parachute Rigging Manual. It is what Poynter's Manual Volume 3 would look like if Dan Poynter ever wrote a volume 3.



Sandy wrote that? I'll be damned. I have a copy (which I've only skimmed so far) and was surprised at the quality, considering it was published by a govt agency. I also didn't notice until just now that it has the TSO and SAE docs in the back. Cool!
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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I had a rigger mis-route my reserve rip-cord in such a way that I would of had a hard, if not impossible pull... I never jumped the rig, as it was immediately grounded by another rigger upon my arrival at a new dz. At the time, this "rigger" was also being investigated for pencil packing reserves and was busted by the FAA for doing so. While I don't think my issue caused his ticket to be revoked, I'm confident that it sealed his fate. That lying, lazy, thieving POSMF will never again endanger the life of a skydiver through rigging ever again. **

The lesson that I re-learned that day is that while riggers are human and thus do make mistakes... not all riggers are equal and there are riggers out there that shouldn't be riggers. If you got your ticket to earn some cash or to offset your jumping costs, than shame on you! Your not doing anyone a favor and sooner or later your going to have to live with the consequences of your actions. If you want my business, earn my trust. We (skydivers) trust you (riggers) with our lives...

Buzz and Mur: Again, I thank you for your actions and professionalism and I consider both them and you a credit to the Rigging community. You both have a 'save' in my book!

** Yes Mods, I know it was a PA. Spank me if you must but please... be gentle. :P

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

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If you got your ticket to earn some cash or to offset your jumping costs, than shame on you! Your not doing anyone a favor and sooner or later your going to have to live with the consequences of your actions.



Huh? :|

What is wrong with wanting to supplement your jumping income. If you have a love for gear and all of its mechanics I don't see the harm in getting money from it.

Maybe I misunderstood your point.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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i had been working at steve snyder's dz for a few years and when i turned 16 made my first jump(dec 1970) had a partial mal which i instinctively (and stupidly) tried (and sucessfully)cleared. 2 weeks later,, the very reserve that i was wearing on that jump was up for repack .i was helping the rigger so we put the reserve on the table to dump it.WE COULDN'T!it took 2 people trying at the same time before we were sucessful.the problem was that when the power ripcord for the sentinel auto opener was installed,the rigger did not take out some of the stitches on the ripcord pocket to accomodate the power r/c barrel(even tho he was familiar with the proceedure.)
in 1978 i was asked to repack a round (26' navy conical) reserve .seems it had been used as a main for several hundreds of jumps. when i found this out, decided i was damn sure gonna do a pull test(and not the 40# test we have today but rather to grasp the fabric in my hands about 6 inches apart and pull.) the veru first panel i pulled on just absolutely ripped at maybe 5 to 10 lbs TOPS. upon further testing i was able to rip 27 or 28 panels (a 26 navy conical has 22 gores each made of 4 panels for a total of 88 panels.)i filled out a canopy damge chart and by compiling all the damge into one secton of the chart ,more than 25% of the total area of the canopy was bad. it would not have survivd an opening shock and this dude weighed like 200 lbs.

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I have seen a couple errors on reserves... One would have been fatal and the other one, I am not sure but it wouldn't have been fun to land. For the amount of pack jobs I have done, I think I have seen a couple too many.

The first one I found while doing my Rigger's training, I was still a riglet. I found it doing the line continuity check. A couple of the lines were crossed (out of order). The second one was one that would have more than likely ended up as a line over on the reserve. The lines were wrapped around the pack job instead of straight up and down the middle of the pack job. That one would not have been too pretty. [:/]

I have also heard about but not seen an instance when a pack job went through 4 cycles until someone found the molar strap still attached. That result would have had obvious consequences. :S

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

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I have seen a couple errors on reserves... One would have been fatal and the other one, I am not sure but it wouldn't have been fun to land. For the amount of pack jobs I have done, I think I have seen a couple too many.

The first one I found while doing my Rigger's training, I was still a riglet. I found it doing the line continuity check. A couple of the lines were crossed (out of order). The second one was one that would have more than likely ended up as a line over on the reserve. The lines were wrapped around the pack job instead of straight up and down the middle of the pack job. That one would not have been too pretty. [:/]

I have also heard about but not seen an instance when a pack job went through 4 cycles until someone found the molar strap still attached. That result would have had obvious consequences. :S



I had a rig that a few errors were found on. The reserve had been installed and repacked by the same rigger 6-7 times, it had also been repacked by this rigger's apprentice 1 time. I then had the rig repacked by a third rigger once whilst on the road, 99% the errors were there since the reserve was originally installed and went unnoticed all this time. >:( When I relocated I had a rigger friend of mine repack my reserve in a hotel room the night before a boogie and he found 2 lines crossed (out of order) on the links and the cloth slider bumpers not tacked down and starting to ride up the lines.:o The latter could have caused by slider to get stuck and prevent the canopy from inflating. B|

I have also witnessed a packing weight fall out of a reserve container when opened....not my rig though. One time in Arizona I went into Wayne's loft and the riggers there were swinging a container round the room from the reserve bridle and couldn't get the freebag to release from the container...not my rig again thankfully!

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Lets see....

Clamp on the nose of a reserve packed in a Javelin.

Factory mistake- stabilizer sewn too far down the C line. The main problem with that is, it had been packed 8 times before I got it.

Factory mistake- No crossports at all. packed 4 times before I got it.

Dead mouse packed in a reserve. It had been 7 months since the last pack job. Nasty

Total misrouting of lines on reserve. Front lines to rear risers, rear to front, control lines not thru slider. That rigger is not a rigger any more.

Packing weight in pilot rig.

Pull up cord tied around reserve lines, directly below canopy/slider.

Lots of velcro damage on reserve lines from improper line stowage in free bag.

I still use 3-4 tools I found in pack jobs.

A lot more little stuff

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I have done about 300 reserve A.I.R.'s, and about 1/2 of them are pilot seats (Strong 304's).

I've never seen anything that would scare me white or anything that would have 100%not worked, but I've seen a few packjobs that were just sloopy to the point where I just shook my head and wondered what the hell that rigger was thinking...
=========Shaun ==========


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