Surprise Zero G

[CMiller 1]

Something happened last week that made me think about being a little more heads up. Normally, I check to see that my pilot chute is in nice and snug a few minutes before jump run. I don't always, but I do on a fairly regular basis.

On a sunset load, I gave it a check around 10 grand, and it seemed fine. Several people had scratched from the load right before takeoff, so there were only about 8 people in the otter. Maybe it was because they had their money already, and thus could afford extra fuel to burn, but whatever the reason the pilot began flying up and down, giving us heavy positive Gs, and moments of Zero G. It was quite fun.

During one of the zero G dives, I hit the roof of the plane. This apparently loosened my pilot chute. It did not occur to me to check it again. Fortunately for me another jumper noticed it and tucked it back in before the door opened.

I don't know how common this particular scenario is, but it truly did not occur to me to check it again after being flung about the cabin, which is somewhat frightening.

I wasn't even aware the pilot was going to be doing this, and was caught off guard while leaning on a bench (it collapsed under my then greater weight during the first climb). This is a scenario that I'd never discussed anywhere, or even really considered before, even at safety day.

So I guess

1. Be sure all the jumpers are aware of what's going on.
2. Check your pins and pilot chutes afterwards.

From what I hear, these kinds of things are usually surprises. The surprise is nice and all, but there's the potential for being unprepared.

[Butters 0]

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From what I hear, these kinds of things are usually surprises.

The only surprise I want from the pilot is extra altitude.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[BillyVance 34]

Mike Mullins does those zero-G moves right at the start of jump run a lot, and he lets the load know he's going to do it. Makes it easy for them to get up from the floor.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[wildWilly 0]

I check my pilot chute on EVERY jump before the door is open. You never know what the moving around before exit is going to catch something.
It's good to hear someone else was paying attention and saved you a possibly very bad incident.
Zero G's are fun when done smoothly. You can tell what is coming by the sudden increase in climb and pressure you feel. If you don't know what's going on it can be a little scary but you should not have been "flung about the cabin". Does this pilot do this on a regular basis?
Maybe tell the pilot to refrain from doing future zero G's unless everyone knows what's coming.

willy

growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.

[normiss 622]

You should do a gear check during the backflip portion of the zero g ride.


ok at least once back on the floor at least....

[chuckakers 370]

Did the pilot ask everyone on the load if performing zero-G's was ok with them before doing them?

Many people don't like them, and some people get sick from them. Some people, including myself, believe that while a zero-G move by itself is not inherently dangerous, it speaks to the attitude and mindset of the pilot.

With all the crap - accidents, incidents, screw-ups - we see going on with jump planes, isn't it finally time to just take the paying customers to altitude in the most textbook manner possible?

The amount of aircraft accidents that began with a pilot "just having a little fun" is substantial and completely avoidable.

I can't possible be the only skydiver left that gets it, can I?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[billvon 2,395]

> Some people, including myself, believe that while a zero-G move by
> itself is not inherently dangerous, it speaks to the attitude and mindset
> of the pilot.

Indeed it does. It means they are more like skydivers and less like airline transport pilots. Which, to me, is not entirely a bad thing.

>With all the crap - accidents, incidents, screw-ups - we see going on
>with jump planes, isn't it finally time to just take the paying customers to
>altitude in the most textbook manner possible?

Perhaps - but you could apply that to all aspects of skydiving. Freeflying, swooping and bigways are arguably more dangerous than more basic sorts of skydiving (4-way, solos.) But we're OK with the risk. We're even OK with the risk of someone else screwing up (sliding while head down, for example) and killing us.

But as you mentioned, you're the paying customer. If you don't like how the pilot flies, find another DZ.

[chuckakers 370]

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Some people, including myself, believe that while a zero-G move by
> itself is not inherently dangerous, it speaks to the attitude and mindset
> of the pilot.

Indeed it does. It means they are more like skydivers and less like airline transport pilots. Which, to me, is not entirely a bad thing.

Actually it means they are more like skydivers and less like professional pilots, regardless of discipline. Flying jumpers is a tactical environment. The pilots attention - all of it - should be on conducting the flight as safely as possible, and nothing else. The original post concerning a crawling p/c is good example of the potentially fatal possibilities. Should we all check our gear before exit? Of course, but that won't matter when a p/c launches during climb-out or while chunking a piece, all because a pilot felt the need to entertain jumpers and waste the DZO's money.

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>>With all the crap - accidents, incidents, screw-ups - we see going on
>with jump planes, isn't it finally time to just take the paying customers to
>altitude in the most textbook manner possible?

Perhaps - but you could apply that to all aspects of skydiving. Freeflying, swooping and bigways are arguably more dangerous than more basic sorts of skydiving (4-way, solos.) But we're OK with the risk. We're even OK with the risk of someone else screwing up (sliding while head down, for example) and killing us.

But as you mentioned, you're the paying customer. If you don't like how the pilot flies, find another DZ.

Bad comparison. The ride up is not the activity of choice, it's a necessity in order for us to to conduct the activity of choice. I, like everyone in the sport should, fully accept the risks of my skydiving, whatever discipline that may be.

And yes, I am the paying customer and I can and would take my business elsewhere if needed to avoid unprofessional flight ops. I am at the mercy of the pilot on the ride up. I don't need a joyride.

Look at it this way. The plane ride up is like the car ride to the race track. The race car drivers don't race to the track, they race at it.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[billvon 2,395]

>Flying jumpers is a tactical environment.

No more so than freefall is. He, like many of the skydivers in his airplane, is responsible for other people. He, like many of the skydivers in his airplane, is doing it mainly for fun and getting paid peanuts for doing it.

>The ride up is not the activity of choice, it's a necessity in order for
>us to to conduct the activity of choice.

It is a necessity _somewhere_. It is not necessary for _you_ to use any given pilot to skydive. If it bothers you, vote with your wallet. If not, sit down and enjoy the ride.

>The plane ride up is like the car ride to the race track.

OK, fair enough. And if your friend is driving, and he wants to roll down the window and holler at his friends in another car, or put on a headset and talk to his wife - are you never driving with him again?

[chuckakers 370]

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>Flying jumpers is a tactical environment.

No more so than freefall is. He, like many of the skydivers in his airplane, is responsible for other people. He, like many of the skydivers in his airplane, is doing it mainly for fun and getting paid peanuts for doing it.

>The ride up is not the activity of choice, it's a necessity in order for
>us to to conduct the activity of choice.

It is a necessity _somewhere_. It is not necessary for _you_ to use any given pilot to skydive. If it bothers you, vote with your wallet. If not, sit down and enjoy the ride.

>The plane ride up is like the car ride to the race track.

OK, fair enough. And if your friend is driving, and he wants to roll down the window and holler at his friends in another car, or put on a headset and talk to his wife - are you never driving with him again?

As I said in my first response, I would leave a DZ if I wasn't happy with the flight ops. I've done it in the past. As for your defense of the behavior in question, I guess we just disagree.

I believe flying a plane for hire properly - regardless of the amount of peanuts the job pays - means keeping your mind on the task and not hot dogging. I think most passengers, jumpers, and pilots would agree.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[billvon 2,395]

>I believe flying a plane for hire properly - regardless of the amount of peanuts
>the job pays - means keeping your mind on the task and not hot dogging. I think
>most passengers, jumpers, and pilots would agree.

Let's compare it to a job I do most weekends - AFF.

In AFF, you and your partner are responsible for the safety of the student. It is a serious responsibility, one that requires good flying skills, good teaching skills and good judgment.

In the airplane, certain things have to get done. We have to do a gear check, a dive review, a radio check and a hand signals review. We have to get the student seatbelted, helmet on/off, standing and safely out the door.

But as long as all that is covered, then the reserve side is free to do pretty much what they want. He or she might talk to their friends. They might hang their heads out the door to make their cheeks puff up with wind; that's always good for a laugh. They might give complex fist jabs to their friends. They might talk to the student or play practical jokes on him/her (if they are receptive to that, of course.) "Hey, there's something on your jumpsuit . . ." was always a favorite at Brown.

And honestly, that's all fine. Does it increase the risk to the student? Slightly. If you're not staring at him the whole time, he might decide to disconnect his RSL, and that might not get caught at the final gear check before exit. If you joke with him, he might become offended and upset and do poorly during the dive. Common sense, rather than "thou shalt not speak to friends" or "thou shalt not be jocular with thy students" is generally the rule - and it works pretty well overall.

I see pilots in the same light. If they want to do a bit of zero-G and it doesn't bother anyone, fine. If the pilot wants to do a flyby of the watchtower at Lost Prairie, fine - just let me know so I can get my camera out. If he wants to fly in formation for practice even on a non-formation load, again - fine. The important thing is that they do their job well and get everyone to altitude safely. Which, from my experience, does not exclude zero-G manuevers (as Mike Mullins has demonstrated over tens of thousands of loads.)

[Gary73 8]

Personally I love zero-G, but one thing that few pilots and fewer jumpers realize is that most planes are not certified for zero-G flight of any duration. The problem is that the fuel and oil systems depend on gravity to get those fluids to their pumps, etc.. Without it, the fluids float around in the tanks, leaving the pumps sucking wind, which is not so good. It can also cause debris and gunk in the tanks to become dislodged and get into the filters and pumps. Also not good. Then there's the problem of everyone floating to the back of the cabin, which will happen with extended zero-G unless the pilot pulls back on the throttles just right. So as much fun as it is, don't encourage pilots to do zero-G in any plane that isn't certified for it.

BTW, jumpers sometimes refer to low-G as being zero-G. If you're still on the floor, just lighter than normal, that's low-G, and that's okay, since the fuel and oil are still at the bottom of their tanks. If you're hitting the ceiling, that's zero- or maybe negative-G, and that's going to be trouble eventually. Yeah, I know, I'm no fun at all...

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[bclark 0]

I concur.

I don't like flying with pilots who feel the need to show off or entertain the jumpers with unusual maneuvers. I don't like the way the load shifts during zero G maneuvers. You can swear up and down that because you are at "0 G" there is no stress on the aircraft, but that is only true during the actual moment at which "0 G" exists, not during the setup, entry, or exit of the maneuver. Jump planes are old. Be nice to them.

I can think of several negative consequences to this type of behavior (dislodged handles, airframe stress, change of CG), but only one positive: making a bunch of idiots go WOOHOO!

[pilotdave 0]

Actually all airplanes are certified for zero-G... it's an FAR. That's structural only of course. You're right about the effect on fuel/oil systems.

§ 23.337 Limit maneuvering load factors.
(b) The negative limit maneuvering load factor may not be less than—
(1) 0.4 times the positive load factor for the normal utility and commuter categories;

However, I'll take an ATP over a skydiver flying me to altitude any day. Any time I hear about a plane regularly doing something that's within it's limits but outside of it's normal intended operation, I get nervous. Any plane can handle a zero-G pushover. But most planes are not designed to have their wings loaded and unloaded over and over again (aside from taking off and landing). A more extreme case of this has caused a series of wing spar failures in older aircraft that previously had no history of spar failures.

Also gotta think about other stuff in the aircraft that could come lose. A blackhawk helicopter crashed years ago when a pilot was messing around at low altitude.... He pushed the nose over, a wheel chock flew forward and jammed a flight control.

Zero-G is fun, but I can live without it. Almost went through the aft partition of a caravan and almost tossed my camera helmet when the pilot (who later got fired by the aircraft owner for other issues) did some unexpected zero-G. Another time we had everybody on the plane fly toward the tail. LUCKILY we were still low enough to have our seatbelts on, so nobody moved too far. That one could have been BAD...

Dave

[Nutz 0]

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Mike Mullins does those zero-G moves right at the start of jump run a lot, and he lets the load know he's going to do it. Makes it easy for them to get up from the floor.

He does it every jump, he doesn't tell you he is fixing to do it, if you are paying attention you can hear the flaps going out, well most of us, then you are going to get heavy, lift off the floor and he is going to say,"Exit, exit, exit." You open the door and get the crap out. (It is rude to check the spot when Mike is flying.)

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[peek 20]

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During one of the zero G dives, I hit the roof of the plane. This apparently loosened my pilot chute.

This is one of the reasons I was initially not too thrilled with Mike Mullins technique of using zero-G maneuvers in his King Air to help people get to their feet before exit. I was always concerned that the flaps on my rig would rub up against something during the maneuver. However, now that I am used to it, I find that it is helpful, and probably prevents less contact among jumpers and rigs (if they know how to handle it correctly).

I discussed this with Mike not long ago, and expressed my concern that other jump pilots (in other aircraft) may attempt to emulate him with bad results.

Just because Mike does it does not mean that your pilot should do this. And do not suggest to your pilot that they do this.

Think about what happens if the jumpers floating around during the zero-G maneuvers get relocated further aft in the plane.

[chuckakers 370]

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It is rude to check the spot when Mike is flying.

Yes, and besides, checking for traffic and clouds is such a waste of time.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Nutz 0]

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It is rude to check the spot when Mike is flying.

Yes, and besides, checking for traffic and clouds is such a waste of time.

Yes, exactly!

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[avenfoto 0]

did someone say zero g?

http://gozerog.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=122&pos=115
photo by me, organized by me...
yeah im proud...
check out my website for more...
www.avenfoto.com/gallery

[ryoder 1,381]

Surprise zero-G's are bullshit!

People in the past have had containers dumped in the plane from this crap.

On one occasion, a 182 pilot did this to me. There was a static line with that big, heavy, metal hook coiled up on the floor under the pilot's seat. He dove the plane so hard the static line looked like a rattlesnake striking as it jumped off the floor and the hook nailed me right between the eyes. Fortunately, I was wearing a big old heavy pair of rubber-rimmed goggles that protected my face.

I spent the next minute or so screaming in the pilot's face to make my feelings known.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[diverdriver 5]

If you hit the ceiling you are not doing "zero G" you are doing negative Gs. Twin Otters are not rated for extended negative Gs. You risk breaking someone's neck. Pulling unexpected manuevers for yahoo effect is a sign of pilot boredom. Be aware.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[chuckakers 370]

You guys are driving my point home very well. Pilots, do us a favor and save the demonstration of your skills for fun flights. We just want to go to altitude smoothly.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[2cmyzx 0]

Chris, something like that happened at Lost prairie 3 years ago I believe. Skyvan full of people to do a raft dive, 3 of us were at the back to do some freefly. Green light, we leave and when we landed the last person of us 3 said that when he was leaving that something happened in the Skyvan. Looked up and no other canopies, they landed the rest of the load and Helicopter took away one or two on a medivac. Later had heard that they were getting - G"s to help get the raft up and out the door and got too much and everyone slammed into the roof causing injuries to the ladys that were in the raft. Dont know how serious but the next day I seen one of them in a neckbrace.

[BMFin 0]

Friend of mine broke her ankle when a pilot decided to do some suprise zero G manuvers while climbing to altitude. This happend at one of the biggest DZ´s in US.
The issue was setteled afterwards and from what I heard is that the pilot got fired..

However, I have nothing against some fun and, IMO if the pilot informs everyone on board and no one opposes then go ahead..

EDIT: also the DZO might have to face some legal issues when things like these occur. (someone gets hurt) Not a good idea in the US $$$

[Beerlight 0]

I didn't read all the replies, but I'll add.

If you hit the roof of the plane........wouldn't it be Negative G? ie. -1 or better?

edit to add: sounds like you had fun!