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dgw

Near miss - talk to your fellow skydivers first.

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I zoomed past an opening canopy in freefall today, about 20 metres to my right. I could see the whites of the other persons eyes.

The scenario:

I was doing a flat solo, exiting after another flat solo. The first jumper was deploying at 4500 feet, I was deploying at 3500 feet. I raised the exit order as a concern with the jump master, but the received view was that this would not be a problem.

All of the skydivers exiting after me were AFF stiudents and instructors.

I, because of the difference in opening altitudes between the other jumper and I, elected to do a 15 second track off the jump run, and away from the first jumper.

Thinking myself to be in clear air space, I was not paying much attention to what was below. Unbeknownst to me, the first jumper had also decided, late in the jump, to track, and to deploy at 4000 feet rather than 4500. Both 'tracks' placed the jumper almost directly below me. I was in the process of reaching for my pilot chute when I saw the other jumpers canopy 'appear'.

This episode was discussed with the CCI.

Lessons:

1/ I should have seen the lower jumper.

2/ Do not track unless previously discussed with other jumpers. This applies to all parties.

3/ When solos are intended, put the highest opening solo out last.

I feel pretty lucky to have got away without both of us getting killed.

I would appreciate any comments on other lessons that can be learned.

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I raised the exit order as a concern with the jump master, but the received view was that this would not be a problem.



Sounds like he trusted your decision.
Now, when I think of it, I would either exit right after the guy, keeping him in sight or
I would make a pretty long delay between our exits.

But you didn't say about exit alt and how long was delay?
(and of coarse his experience)
What goes around, comes later.

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It seems to me that the major problem is the delay between you and the jumpers before you. All jumpers know they have to observe a delay of 5-10 seconds after another jumper/group of jumpers. But most of the skydivers are reluctant to wait actually for a full measured 10 seconds. Here are some results coming from simple kinematics:

At 90 MPH (about the exit speed for a Twin Otter, Caravan, Cessna 182...) the distance travelled in 10 seconds is 1320 ft or 440 yards or exactly 4 football fields. Tracking in the good direction is also impotant but in a group jump you not always choose the exact direction of your track and therefore encounters happen in the sky like yours.
Waiting 440 yards or 10 seconds seems always quite long but if you want really to be safe, count those 10 seconds.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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Now, when I think of it, I would either exit right after the guy, keeping him in sight or
I would make a pretty long delay between our exits.



When I think of it, both options seem like pretty bad ideas.

The first, to exit tight, and 'keep an eye' on him - how do you expect to coduct your own skydive if you are trying to keep visual contact with another jumper? Let's say you 'somehow' loose sight of him, you have still exited closer than you should have, and now you are close by, and have no idea where he is or what he is doing.

Your second option is only valid if you are the last jumper to leave the plane. If there is anyone behind you, you need to stick with the agreed upon exit separation based on the winds that day and the make up of the groups on the load.

Your best bet will always be to stick to the plan when it comes to factors that are agreed upon for the entire load. You are sharing the sky with these people, and they will be expecting you to abide by the choices you all made proir to take off, as you should be expecting of them.

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I zoomed past an opening canopy in freefall today, about 20 metres to my right. I could see the whites of the other persons eyes.

The scenario:

I was doing a flat solo, exiting after another flat solo. The first jumper was deploying at 4500 feet, I was deploying at 3500 feet. I raised the exit order as a concern with the jump master, but the received view was that this would not be a problem.

All of the skydivers exiting after me were AFF stiudents and instructors.

I, because of the difference in opening altitudes between the other jumper and I, elected to do a 15 second track off the jump run, and away from the first jumper.

Thinking myself to be in clear air space, I was not paying much attention to what was below. Unbeknownst to me, the first jumper had also decided, late in the jump, to track, and to deploy at 4000 feet rather than 4500. Both 'tracks' placed the jumper almost directly below me. I was in the process of reaching for my pilot chute when I saw the other jumpers canopy 'appear'.

This episode was discussed with the CCI.

Lessons:

1/ I should have seen the lower jumper.

2/ Do not track unless previously discussed with other jumpers. This applies to all parties.

3/ When solos are intended, put the highest opening solo out last.

I feel pretty lucky to have got away without both of us getting killed.

I would appreciate any comments on other lessons that can be learned.



I question the instructor who said having the higher deploying jumper exit first was ok.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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What happened to tracking perpendicular to the line of flight?:S

Tracking up/down the line of flight has been an established "bad idea" for quite some time.;)



he didnt say that he tracked up the jump run he said that he tracked off it, which I read as meaning perpendicular to.

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Now, when I think of it, I would either exit right after the guy, keeping him in sight or I would make a pretty long delay between our exits.



Better plan would have been for the 3,500 to go first, the 4,500 to go second as they . The first option is a poor idea...the other guy isn't expecting someone that close to their airspace, so its not in his plan to keep them in mind during the jump

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Exit order SHOULDN'T have mattered... although in this case if the lower puller went first it might have helped. But we don't rely on vertical separation. The problem here was that they didn't plan ahead and communicate their plans. They each had their own tracking dive and each tracked into the same airspace. We should have enough separation at exit so that at the end of our jump we can track straight toward the next/previous group while they track straight toward our group and still have enough separation when we open. In this case, both of them tracked farther than planned and they happened to choose to aim for the same point in the sky.

I think they learned their lesson on this one... if you're going to do a tracking dive, you need to communicate with the other people on the load so that your groups don't mix. Choosing exit order based on pull altitudes isn't always a smart practice and shouldn't be the lesson here. That kind of thinking can lead to people putting freeflyers out before belly flyers because the belly flyers plan to pull a little higher. Those groups are likely to cross paths in freefall... putting them at risk of a collision if one of the freeflyers has a premature deployment. Never assume the lower puller is going to pull lower.

Dave

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It was a track off the flight line. We both tracked off the flight line. This was the whole point of the track - to get off the flight line.



But one (or both) of you didn't track perpendicular to jump run.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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Yes, you are absolutely right. That is another one of the factors that culminated in a 'near miss'.

I am satisfied that I tracked at about 90 degrees to the jump run. I was quite particular in that regard. For a 15 second squirt, a few degrees should not matter too much (in my newbie opinion).

But, the point is that better communication of intention would have negated the problem. I fully accept my own failings, and I post only in an effort to raise awareness, and mostly for new jumpers.

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Exit order SHOULDN'T have mattered... although in this case if the lower puller went first it might have helped. But we don't rely on vertical separation. The problem here was that they didn't plan ahead and communicate their plans. They each had their own tracking dive and each tracked into the same airspace. We should have enough separation at exit so that at the end of our jump we can track straight toward the next/previous group while they track straight toward our group and still have enough separation when we open. In this case, both of them tracked farther than planned and they happened to choose to aim for the same point in the sky.

I think they learned their lesson on this one... if you're going to do a tracking dive, you need to communicate with the other people on the load so that your groups don't mix. Choosing exit order based on pull altitudes isn't always a smart practice and shouldn't be the lesson here. That kind of thinking can lead to people putting freeflyers out before belly flyers because the belly flyers plan to pull a little higher. Those groups are likely to cross paths in freefall... putting them at risk of a collision if one of the freeflyers has a premature deployment. Never assume the lower puller is going to pull lower.

Dave



A very good reply, and in my opinion the perfect response to this situation. Nice job Dave.


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Well, since my post got deleted with no commentary as to why, I'll repeat some of it.

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I question the instructor who said having the higher deploying jumper exit first was ok.


Good stuff, chuckakers

For the OP:
Lessons:

1/ I should have seen the lower jumper.
Maybe, maybe not. Bodies in freefall are harder to spot amongst the ground clutter. By all means look, though. And look as diligently as you can.

2/ Do not track unless previously discussed with other jumpers. This applies to all parties.

3/ When solos are intended, put the highest opening solo out last.
Standard operating procedure most everywhere. Horizontal separation is the goal but vertical separation is a good thing too.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I am satisfied that I tracked at about 90 degrees to the jump run. I was quite particular in that regard. For a 15 second squirt, a few degrees should not matter too much (in my newbie opinion).



I don't think 15 seconds (typically 1/4 of a skydive) is a squirt. ;)
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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<<>> Exit order does a difference since in the case of free flyers, their freefall time is shorter and therefore they are less exposed to the wind drift than slower jumpers. Freeflyers then cover shorter horizontal distance due to that drift than slow jumpers. If the delay is too short and freeflyers exit first there is a risk the slow flyers path comes across the freeflyers one at opening altitude. It is particularly touchy when wind are strong at altitude while it is non existant in a no wind (in altitude) situation. This is why in the ideal situation there should be a jumpmaster for each load. That role can be performed by an experienced jumper. Why not designate a responsible jump master at the manifest who will ask every group what they do and load them (exit order) accordingly ?
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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Read my whole post. I never said that exit order isn't important. I said it shouldn't have mattered in this case. We shouldn't choose exit order based on slight differences in pull altitudes. If the only lesson that people learn here is that high pullers should go out after low pullers, they haven't learned a thing.

Dave

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Read my whole post. I never said that exit order isn't important. I said it shouldn't have mattered in this case. We shouldn't choose exit order based on slight differences in pull altitudes. If the only lesson that people learn here is that high pullers should go out after low pullers, they haven't learned a thing.

Dave



It seems like the discussion is not covering exit separation sufficiently. If at both tracked 15 seconds off jump run, and at least one truly did it near 90 degrees, then the exit separation was likely too short.

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Here is the data:

The wind at exit altitude (12k) was 10 knots. The separation between exits was 5 seconds.

When I exited, I had sight of the previous jumper. I believed the horizontal separation was sufficient. I maintained visual contact for 4/5 seconds before lining myself up for the short track.

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Here is the data:

The wind at exit altitude (12k) was 10 knots. The separation between exits was 5 seconds.

When I exited, I had sight of the previous jumper. I believed the horizontal separation was sufficient. I maintained visual contact for 4/5 seconds before lining myself up for the short track.



Well, according to your OP, between the two of you you managed to reduce your separation to 20m (just over 60ft for the dimensionally challenged). with a 10kt upper wind, you started out with about 600ft separation horizontally. Go figure.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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The separation between exits was 5 seconds.


I figure the delay was 3 or so seconds.
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I maintained visual contact for 4/5 seconds


As he could see him already, he should've commit this jump to avoidance by depending on lower jumper's actions. (if you can't trust the guy - you better watch him)

... and I wouldn't call 15 sec. track a "short one",
nor a "safe one" in this case.
What goes around, comes later.

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tell your CCI you know a guy with an almost all-camo jumpsuit. i got video of me almost disappearing with the ground, but i have the guy filming me about 10ft from me. you'll never see me, in almost all circumstances.. ;)

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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Do you think that your jumps, and subsequent trajectories, could have looked anything like this?

*(see attached rough diagram)

Simple enough, for each of you to think you were both tracking perpendicular to the line of flight, and ROUGHLY, each of you would have been right/"close". Maybe the moral of this story is if you are 2 solo's - DON'T TRACK! ...There is nothing else relative to you anyway, you should be "breaking off" from to "get away from". Do your skydive, and open in "YOUR" airspace. If you've already done sufficient and CORRECT separation from the get-go (at exit - see "x's" on the line-of-flight line), you should both be just fine. Even with the jumper ahead, supposedly opening a little higher.

However, by both of you "tracking", even at what each of you may have THOUGHT was perpendicular to the line of flight, doesn't take too much of an error at all between you, for this diagram I don't think, to be plausible as a result.

Now, if part of the plan of your skydive(s) is (are) to practice tracking - then PLAN the skydive better between you, and STICK WITH THE PLAN. I.E.: One tracks ONE WAY "perpendicular" to the line of flight, the other, the OTHER way.

So your "answer" is probably 2-fold. Better Planning between you, then better (or more correct) exit separation (which I'm still not sure wasn't the problem with you in tihs case) as well.

Hope the added possible perspective (and neanderthal drawing) is also of some help.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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