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dj_smokie

Wait for CYPRES in emergency?

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if you land with your handles in place and a cut reserve closing loop edited for clarification due to an a.a.d. fire, meaning you did nothing to save your life



you either better have a pretty good reason, or youre just plain fucking stupid.

if it's the later good luck because you will probably get grounded or not be jumping at that dropzone ever again
if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

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what if your cutter is mounted at the bottom of the packtray ?



Good point. I guess you'd have to wait for them to download the data and figure out if it really was a cypress save.



confused, the reserve is out. pretty easy ro the friend to see if the loop is cut or not - base of the loop, middle of the loop, is the loop completely gone..... or is it still there and intact

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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what if your cutter is mounted at the bottom of the packtray ?



Good point. I guess you'd have to wait for them to download the data and figure out if it really was a cypress save.



confused, the reserve is out. pretty easy ro the friend to see if the loop is cut or not - base of the loop, middle of the loop, is the loop completely gone..... or is it still there and intact



if your cutter is mounted ABOVE the freebag, then any movement of the freebag (think just after reserve bridge stretch and possible immediately after the reserve PC launch) will move the closing loop from inside the cutter. Which points to using a cut reserve closing loop as an absolute assessment a flawed form of reasoning in the situation discussed.

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what happens if you are entangled in your main canopy??
Ive been taught to keep on trying to get rid of an entanglement before cutting away and getting the reserve out. I think i would want as long as possible to try and clear it before the reserve opens, even if that means relying on an AAD

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what happens if you are entangled in your main canopy??
Ive been taught to keep on trying to get rid of an entanglement before cutting away and getting the reserve out. I think i would want as long as possible to try and clear it before the reserve opens, even if that means relying on an AAD



Please talk to your instructors about this, I think you might have misunderstoof what they were saying.

If I'm in a main entanglement, I'll surely try to get out of it before I cutaway or fire my reserve, but at some point it may be better to get as much fabric out as possible. Also, if you are entangled with a partially inflated main, you may not be descending fast enough to set off your AAD.

Again, talk to your instructors.

- Dan G

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A modern day AAD activates (in "experienced" mode) by a speed of 78 Mph. If you are falling with a partially canopy out your speed can be less (let's say 75 Mph) This means your AAD will not activate and you slam to the ground with that speed (75 Mph). You probably will not survive...

Never ever wait for the AAD! Especially with troubles any extra altitude you can gain by reacting yourself higher than the activation altitude of 800-100 feet might save your life!

The AAD is a back up device only and activates at an altitude you may assume that if no action is taken now, the skydiver probably will die. (I.e. very low...)

Warm regards,
William
Argus

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...the skydiver "waited" for their CYPRES to deploy because they "knew" it was about to fire.



One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the time factor involved here. If you "waited" for your CYPRES to fire at 750 ft., and it malfunctioned by not firing, how soon would you be aware of this and pull manually ? If it took you 1 sec. to recognize the failure and pull, and 1 sec. for the reserve to open, you would be at approx. 400 ft.
Pretty slim margin.[:/]

Kevin K.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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If you "waited" for your CYPRES to fire at 750 ft., and it malfunctioned by not firing, how soon would you be aware of this and pull manually ?



What I heard and it is strictly info from the rumor mill is that 750 feet was chosen because at the altitude at terminal it is too late for the any action by the jumper to make a difference. It is more like:
1. Realize there is a problem – 1 to 1.5 sec
2. Come up with a plan of action – 1 sec (and that is generous)
3. Put that plan in effect – 1 to 1.5 sec
4. That leaves you with less than 2 sec. not enough time for the reserve to deploy. (kkeenan you have been around long enough to remember “line stretch on impact”)
5. And kiss your ass good bye.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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What I heard and it is strictly info from the rumor mill is that 750 feet was chosen because at the altitude at terminal it is too late for the any action by the jumper to make a difference.



If that's really the intent, then I think it's a wise choice. I think they also have had to have included some statistical analysis of how likely such a low reserve deployment is to be meaningful too though, right?

Edit: Sorry... I just wanted to say more. I think that the Cypres is very well engineered. I don't remember much of the general engineering part of my training but I do think that a bit more had to have gone into the decision about what altitude to have the thing fire.

If I was designing the thing (and no, I don't think I can improve on it, I'm just thinking about my thought process) my first thoughts would be:

1. What's the goal? In the case of the Cypres I think it was to cut the reserve closing loop for an incapacitated / unconscious person.

2. Given all other parts of this system work correctly and there is an unimpeded reserve opening within TSO limits, how much altitude do we need?

3. How would the body position of an incapacitated / unconsious person affect the above?

4. Since I can't predict all the possible body positions of an incapacitated person, I'll go with unconscious as my standard.

5. If I want 100% success given that everything else works perfectly, what altitude should I choose?

6. Is that altitude within the average skydivers ability to "save themselves"? If it is, should I lower the above percentage? How many "perfect" reserve deployments are there? If not many, should I lower the above percentage?

The thing I'm thinking is... it's a good idea to include thinking about the point of no return in the design of the Cypres, but I doubt it could be more than some part of the decision.

If I discovered that x (whatever number I decided would be acceptable) percentage would survive if their closing loops were cut at 500 feet, but that y (whatever number seemed reasonable to me) percentage would not survive if they deployed unassisted below 750 feet, I would choose 750 feet.
Owned by Remi #?

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I'm beginning to look for my own gear and was researching AADs. I was reading CYPRES's "SAVES" testimonials on their page. Several of the stories account that the skydiver "waited" for their CYPRES to deploy because they "knew" it was about to fire.

That just sounds like a bad idea to me. Is there any reason you would ever wait for the CYPRES to fire after a malfunction or not being able to throw?



It sounds doubtful that somebody would do this.

Can you link to this story?

If I'm low enough that the cypress is going to go off, I'd probably go for my reserve.

If somebody is really recounting a story such as this, I'd highly suspect it as a excuse to explain not pulling.

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Sorry, it was actually meant as a reply upon MjoSparky his post and then about reaction time opening time etc.

Warm regards,
William



Scientific research shows that it takes the human brain 0.7 seconds to perceive any danger and react accordingly, regardless of background and training.

The times I used are a SWAG. Scientific research is usually done under controlled conditions with the tested knowing what to expect. That is not the case when you are down and dirty.

The bottom line is if you are going through 1,000 feet with nothing out, Shame on you.

Sparky

Then you have those that are just living right.:P

http://s397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/low%20pull/
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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The times I used are a SWAG. Scientific research is usually done under controlled conditions with the tested knowing what to expect. That is not the case when you are down and dirty.



I totally agree. And good you mention that.
To avoid comments such as: "not proven" "no evidence" etc. I used the scientific approach. By doing so I had an outcome I could refer to.
Also in this article real time conditions would have made my case even better.

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The bottom line is if you are going through 1,000 feet with nothing out, Shame on you.



Again, so true

William

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it happen to me! ..sometime like my 20th jump..adjusted my student rig too tight and couldnt find my main pc handle in free fall. three quick tries...went straight for that reserve handle and pull the fuck out of it waay before the aad had a chance to do it for me.

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I'm beginning to look for my own gear and was researching AADs. I was reading CYPRES's "SAVES" testimonials on their page. Several of the stories account that the skydiver "waited" for their CYPRES to deploy because they "knew" it was about to fire.

That just sounds like a bad idea to me. Is there any reason you would ever wait for the CYPRES to fire after a malfunction or not being able to throw?



It sounds doubtful that somebody would do this.

Can you link to this story?

If I'm low enough that the cypress is going to go off, I'd probably go for my reserve.

If somebody is really recounting a story such as this, I'd highly suspect it as a excuse to explain not pulling.



Initially I thought there might be a reason people had allegedly waited for their CYPRES to fire (being an absolute n00b). But it seems to me that the people on the CYPRES testimonials are either stupid of lying.

"26. January, 2006 / Save_06-01-26.jpg
New Zealand… Quote: “2nd jump on new rig. Deployed at 3.000ft waited, looked over shoulder to check pilot chute inflated o.k. Reached behind felt bottom of container to feel if container flaps open. No. I knew Cypres was going to fire any second so waited. Cause of incident: Bridle incorrectly routed. Lack of familiarity after 15 years of using racer elite rig.”"

I think one or two other accounts may state that the individual "waited" for their CYPRES to fire, because it was going to fire anyway.

LINK:http://www.cypres.cc/Sites/englisch/Frameset_engl_skydiving.htm[/url]

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People who claim they "waited" for a Cypres to fire are usually inventing a cover story after the fact.

DZOs and Chief Instructors have heard all the cover stories, so their de-brief usually concludes with:"Why aren't you at the f&^%$#@! bowling alley?"

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The one cypres/no pull I've directly witnessed.
A student going through the static-line progression, doing a 10 sec delay. He'd had stability (slight spin) problems. We talked for quite a while both before going up and on the ride up about altitude awareness/ pull priorities. I watched out the door, he got into a spin, and I counted to 10-15... 25+ seconds. I turned in to tell the pilot to take a go-round, looked back out and saw a canopy deflating on the ground, thought it might have opened on impact. The student had a less than 2 sec canopy ride. The Cypres data said it fired at the proper altitude, but....
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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Al Kruger waited for his Argus to fire. Does that count?

He's a left arm amputee who got hit hard during a bigway event. The impact dislocated his right shoulder and broke his prosthetic. He had no choice but to wait for the AAD.

He's neither stupid nor lying, although I'll admit his situation is fairly rare.

- Dan G

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